GMP CC to be prosecuted for H&S breaches after man shot
Discussion
Well Devil2575 the present situation is "we will give you a gun and may want you to shoot somebody and if you make a mistake and kill an innocent person we will do everything in our power to make sure it never comes to court nor will we ever give an adequate explanation to the victims family".
What that says to me is that thdE police shooting have been legal and all above board.
The deaths in custody have mostly been tragic accidents.
If there were no investigations we should be worried.
The fact there are investigations but no wrongdoing is found is a testament to the quality of our police force.
The sad fact is that sometimes fragile people end up in custody and die by accident or committing suicide.
It's not like police officers are going round beating prisoners to death.
Even with goid suicide precautions in place some people find a way to it.
Even with regular checks a drug addict or drunk might have an accident.
The deaths in custody have mostly been tragic accidents.
If there were no investigations we should be worried.
The fact there are investigations but no wrongdoing is found is a testament to the quality of our police force.
The sad fact is that sometimes fragile people end up in custody and die by accident or committing suicide.
It's not like police officers are going round beating prisoners to death.
Even with goid suicide precautions in place some people find a way to it.
Even with regular checks a drug addict or drunk might have an accident.
davidball said:
Well Devil2575 the present situation is "we will give you a gun and may want you to shoot somebody and if you make a mistake and kill an innocent person we will do everything in our power to make sure it never comes to court nor will we ever give an adequate explanation to the victims family".
It is very rare that they make a mistake.If they do it gets investigated.
But, a mistake is not murder.
A mistake is an accident.
I can't think if a single case where the mistake wasn't explained in a reasonable manner
Most the time is wasn't an accidental shooting either.
It was a deliberate shooting, but based on mistaken information.
davidball said:
Well Devil2575 the present situation is "we will give you a gun and may want you to shoot somebody and if you make a mistake and kill an innocent person we will do everything in our power to make sure it never comes to court nor will we ever give an adequate explanation to the victims family".
They don't do a good job of not taking it to the coroners' court, where all the evidence is heard. If it were so obvious it should go to Crown, why no private prosecutions? You still don't see the irony of you not trusting the state, yet wanting to give the state more power to disregard the Human Rights Act and the fundamental principles of justice.
Red 4 said:
...Police are subject to the same laws as everyone else, but the law provides for lawful authority and exemptions for police in certain circumstances.
La Liga said:
Zeeky said:
If the Police are subject to the same laws as everyone else why are they not prosecuted for possession of firearms in public places? The Police are subject to very different laws than the public.
Same laws, some exemptions. PACE would be a better example.Zeeky said:
That isn't to say that the Police should not have rights but that it isn't self-evident that those rights should be the same as everyone else's. Greater power might deserve greater responsibility.
They should when it comes to seeing whether or not a prosecution should be undertaken, at least with the evidential stage. I think most police officers accept that the public interest is higher with them, but they expect there to be a realistic prospect of conviction if they are to be prosecuted, as with everyone else.I believe individual officers should be subject to a similar evidential threshold as others but not because they are subject to the same laws. According to your analysis they could be exempt from some of the protections given to others and still be subject to the same laws. Same laws, some exemptions.
We need to improve public confidence in the use of force, particularly in those communities which give the Police the most work. Greater accountability would go some way to do this. A concentration on prosecuting those at 'the sharp end' with homicide offences leads to inevitable disappointment. Pushing all Officers who are physically responsible for deaths through a trial would only compound the problem.
davidball said:
Well Devil2575 the present situation is "we will give you a gun and may want you to shoot somebody and if you make a mistake and kill an innocent person we will do everything in our power to make sure it never comes to court nor will we ever give an adequate explanation to the victims family".
David,The difference is that a criminal or terrorist goes out with a gun with the express intensional of killing someone.
A policeman on the other hand goes out with the iexpress ntensionl of saving the lives of everyone we know. (On our behalf).
They have a split second to make a decision to decide to shoot, or be shot, or let a potential bomber go.
If you think you have some magical insight that would allow you to have more time than they do to make a decision, then explain which planet you were born on. Because it is not the earth.
People here are mortal, they do not have the ability to freeze time and get. Whiteboard out and involve a frigging committee in every decision.
Of course, we could just pull them all off the street and let terrorists and murderers have free reign - as per your view of the world .
davidball said:
Well Devil2575 the present situation is "we will give you a gun and may want you to shoot somebody and if you make a mistake and kill an innocent person we will do everything in our power to make sure it never comes to court nor will we ever give an adequate explanation to the victims family".
Is that really the case or just your perception?Other than the Mark Duggan case or Menezes how many other shootings have attracted any contraversy?
It's not like the Police shoot many people anyway.
http://www.channel4.com/news/police-fatal-shooting...
Edited by Devil2575 on Thursday 13th February 14:33
Zeeky said:
That is a very naive view and one which the Police appear keen to propagate.
It's not naive at all.It's naive to have people in a situation where they have to make a life or death decision, sometimes in a very short time frame and expect them to never make a mistake. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Zeeky said:
How can someone be subject to a law if they have an exemption to it? I understand you may have been told that you are subject to the same laws as everyone else but it is demonstrably not the case. You are of course, in the capacity of the office held, subject to the law in general.
My logic is this: 1) An exemption is a defence for the accused. It's a statutory defence the same as other specific defences available to everyone.
2) If I'm authorised to carry a firearm, I'm using a an exemption.
3) If I (and I'm not an AFO) drive to the armoury now and pick one up, I'm not using an exemption. Even if I'm an AFO and get my own firearm without certificate etc, I am not using an exemption.
4) If you smash my car window for no reason, you've committed criminal damage.
5) If I have a Dog in the car and it's a hot day and smash my window then you can rely on the 'protection / permission' defence / exemption in the law to smash my window.
6) Does that mean, when you use statutory defence / exemption like in the damage example, you define it as not being subject to the same laws as everyone else?
7) It seems practically the same to me. 'Breaking' the law then using the defences in the statute to not break it, whether the firearms example, or the damage one.
I expect not being a recidivist would have helped him stay alive.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-4...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-4...
It would help, but it's still piss poor to not do a firearms operation correctly. Especially for a force like the GMP which is very experienced in armed deployments and operations.
Quality thread. RH being a moron as always (so sad he's gone) and Davidball suggesting all police officers go on trial for murder no matter what.
Quality thread. RH being a moron as always (so sad he's gone) and Davidball suggesting all police officers go on trial for murder no matter what.
So the get out of jail free card is played again. The way the law is worded it is virtually impossible to hold police officers to account for killing unarmed people. This time the killing is blamed on mistakes and incompetence. Police anonymity shields those who made the mistakes or were incompetent.
When those excuses wear thin Inquiries are used to put a veneer of concern on things or delay, delay delay. How long has the inquiry into under cover policing been sitting? How many officers have requested anonymity? What are they afraid of or ashamed of? How many more years will that inquiry go on. Are they waiting for the officers involved to retire?
I wonder what excuses will be trundled out for the killing of Sean Fitzgerald.
Will the IOPC be just another toothless diversion like its predecessors.
When those excuses wear thin Inquiries are used to put a veneer of concern on things or delay, delay delay. How long has the inquiry into under cover policing been sitting? How many officers have requested anonymity? What are they afraid of or ashamed of? How many more years will that inquiry go on. Are they waiting for the officers involved to retire?
I wonder what excuses will be trundled out for the killing of Sean Fitzgerald.
Will the IOPC be just another toothless diversion like its predecessors.
Well, one out of two disappearing isn't a bad result 
I'm not sure most people are going to care too much about Mr Grainger:
The report is a beast: https://www.graingerinquiry.org.uk/wp-content/uplo...
I'm not sure most people are going to care too much about Mr Grainger:
Inquiry said:
The three men in the stolen Audi were wearing gloves, and Mr Totton and Mr Travers were wearing hats that could be rolled down to form face masks, but the men were not in possession of weapons, nor was there any intelligence to suggest that on this occasion they were armed or had access to firearms. While their visit to Culcheth on 3 March was undoubtedly linked to serious crime, its purpose was probably not to commit a commercial robbery that evening. Instead, it was almost certainly in connection with a future robbery, perhaps to conduct reconnaissance or to steal a car for use in the course of such a robbery.
The report is a beast: https://www.graingerinquiry.org.uk/wp-content/uplo...
[quote=La Liga]Well, one out of two disappearing isn't a bad result
BTW, the officers who have been criticised have been named in the inquiry.
Perhaps you should read more about the things you comment on for once.
Either way, I'm not sure most people are going to care too much about Mr Grainger so you'll have to rant to yourself (or the poor people who look after you):
as per usual.
Glad to hear that the officers have been named and shamed, if that happened more often perhaps police performance might improve.
Do you count yourself amongst those who approve of extra judicial executions?
It is a slippery slope to state sanctioned death squads.
BTW, the officers who have been criticised have been named in the inquiry.
Perhaps you should read more about the things you comment on for once.
Either way, I'm not sure most people are going to care too much about Mr Grainger so you'll have to rant to yourself (or the poor people who look after you):
as per usual.
Glad to hear that the officers have been named and shamed, if that happened more often perhaps police performance might improve.
Do you count yourself amongst those who approve of extra judicial executions?
It is a slippery slope to state sanctioned death squads.
davidball said:
Do you count yourself amongst those who approve of extra judicial executions?
As much as I do judicial executions. davidball said:
It is a slippery slope to state sanctioned death squads.
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