Driving a Minibus

[SammyW]

I'm looking for a little advice with regards to driving a minibus for work purposes. I have looked at the following guidance (https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus), and meet all the criteria with the exception of a couple which I'm not sure about, but have been told that I am legal to drive any minibus.

I'm over 21, have a standard B/B1 driving licence which I got in 2004. What I'm not sure about is whether what I am doing is considered 'social' or 'voluntary' for a non-commercial body, and whether the minibus would come in under the 3.5 tonnes limit. It will be driving children at an independent school to things like sports matches and visits, and potentially using a long wheel base 17 seater Transit minibus.

Where exactly do I stand with this? Doesn't sound legal to me but I'd like to hear the opinion of BiB or legal peeps please.

[StevenB]

The school should have a policy for this if not contact the local council most run a MIDAS scheme ( Minibus Driver Awareness Scheme) and will be able to advise

more info here

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/minibusesforschools/minib...

Edited by StevenB on Wednesday 12th February 21:31

[Mave]

Take a look at the bus itself, it should have a plate telling you weight etc. which you can check against your driving license.

[SammyW]

Mave said:

Take a look at the bus itself, it should have a plate telling you weight etc. which you can check against your driving license.

The buses appear to be under the maximum 3.5 tonne weight, but this is unladen. Does the 3.5 tonne figure include passengers? If that is the case I'm pretty sure a full minibus of pupils (likely age 16-18) will be over the maximum.

[matchmaker]

SammyW said:

I'm looking for a little advice with regards to driving a minibus for work purposes. I have looked at the following guidance (https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus), and meet all the criteria with the exception of a couple which I'm not sure about, but have been told that I am legal to drive any minibus.

I'm over 21, have a standard B/B1 driving licence which I got in 2004. What I'm not sure about is whether what I am doing is considered 'social' or 'voluntary' for a non-commercial body, and whether the minibus would come in under the 3.5 tonnes limit. It will be driving children at an independent school to things like sports matches and visits, and potentially using a long wheel base 17 seater Transit minibus.

Where exactly do I stand with this? Doesn't sound legal to me but I'd like to hear the opinion of BiB or legal peeps please.

You won't be. Minibus rules are complicated. I have a D/D1 (with a restriction I can't remember) licence, so I have less restrictions than you. I can't drive "for hire or reward" so my passengers can't be charged.

Check carefully!

[Juliet1981]

SammyW said:

What I'm not sure about is whether what I am doing is considered 'social' or 'voluntary' for a non-commercial body, and whether the minibus would come in under the 3.5 tonnes limit. It will be driving children at an independent school to things like sports matches and visits.

The way I read it I think you've kind of answered your own question, you want to know if what your doing is considered "social or voluntary" but started your post off with :-

SammyW said:

I'm looking for a little advice with regards to driving a minibus for work purposes.

I would guess that when your saying "driving for work purposes" this means to me that you work for the school and get paid by them so any school visits your driving for are part of your job as a teacher/teaching assistant or whatever and therefore can't be considered as social/voluntary and you can't claim the exemption from needing a full D1 licence.

[abbotsmike]

The school thing is complicated. Many schools currently use the reasoning that you are paid to be a teacher, NOT a driver, therefore driving is an incidental duty and thus OK. As far as I know it is yet to be tested in court.

On weight, you CANNOT drive a 17 seater. Except for a few speciality vehicles designed for primary school kids, ALL 17 seaters gross over 3.5t. The XLWB transits with the 4 wheel rear axle definitely do, as we've been through this at uni. A 17 seater sprinter plates at 4.3T IIRC.

If you sit down and do the maths, you'll find that a 15 seater transit is perilously close to 3.5t, and yet even when over 3.5t, it doesn't look overloaded. Almost as if they designed to to be run over its plated weight.

Happy to answer any other questions if I can, been through this quite a bit as a scout leader and with university.

[Octoposse]

I recall going into this for the London Olympics, in circumstances broadly comparable - unequivocal opinion was that D1 only to drive minibuses. "Normal" car licence holders were restricted to MPVs.

[jbsportstech]

The definitions arent clear and open to different interpretation. I have driven a 11 seat but wouldnt touch a 17 without d/d1 as it more than certainly be on or over 3.5 tn laiden.

I would suggest if regularly driving a mini bus you obtain a d1 licence.

Also note speed limits are lower for mini buses which catches a few people out 60 in 70 etc.

[zubair]

Hi to drive a Minibus on a normal car licence you would need to have a D1 paper back licence which were issued to everyone that has passed his or her driving test before 1997 any normal car driving licence after that period does not have D1 use

[pidsy]

Same issue here at work OP.

you need to have the D1 allowance on your license (which you wont if you got your license after 1997).

a few of our staff have had to do the D1 test, it takes 2/3 days and costs around £1k.

those who do have the D1 allowance already on their license have to do the MIDAS test - bloke from local council sits in the MB with you driving round for about 45 mins and then you get a cert to say you are competant.

[R0G]

To drive a minibus on a B licence it needs to be for a registered charity/voluntary organisation and generally a schools are not such

It also needs to be no more than 3500 kgs GVW which will be listed on the weight plate (top figure of 4)

Age 21+ as well for driver

That's how I remember it .....

[TC99]

I teach the Mini Bus Driver Awareness Scheme (MiDAS) training and to a lot of teachers too and can advise the following.

For a teacher without D1 entitlement to drive a minibus they must fulfil ALL of the following criteria:
They must have held their full UK driving licence for at least two years
They must be at least 21 years old
The vehicle they are driving must be under 3500kg MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass, sometimes referred to as Gross Vehicle Weight) or 4250kg if wheelchair accessible
They must be driving for a non-commercial body for social purposes
They cannot tow a trailer.

This is just a summary, if you want the chapter and verse let me have an email address and I will send you the full documentation. It's important to get it right, if you are not entitled to drive the mini bus on a B licence, you also have no insurance, worrying when you think you might be in a crash with up to 16 passengers.

[abbotsmike]

TC99 said:

I teach the Mini Bus Driver Awareness Scheme (MiDAS) training and to a lot of teachers too and can advise the following.

For a teacher without D1 entitlement to drive a minibus they must fulfil ALL of the following criteria:
They must have held their full UK driving licence for at least two years
They must be at least 21 years old
The vehicle they are driving must be under 3500kg MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass, sometimes referred to as Gross Vehicle Weight) or 4250kg if wheelchair accessible
They must be driving for a non-commercial body for social purposes
They cannot tow a trailer.

This is just a summary, if you want the chapter and verse let me have an email address and I will send you the full documentation. It's important to get it right, if you are not entitled to drive the mini bus on a B licence, you also have no insurance, worrying when you think you might be in a crash with up to 16 passengers.

We got that, but can a teacher driving for their school fulfill the "non-commercial" and "social" criteria?

For example, I drive for my student union (a charity) and my scout group (a charity) but they are very clear cut.

[TC99]

abbotsmike said:

We got that, but can a teacher driving for their school fulfil the "non-commercial" and "social" criteria?

For example, I drive for my student union (a charity) and my scout group (a charity) but they are very clear cut.

The issue would be, is driving in the job description or was it on the person specification? If so then it's NO for a B licence holder for driving any mini bus. It becomes more interesting if it's a sports teacher driving as it can be argued that driving kids to sports events is a part of the job that could be reasonably expected.

Further, you have to be driving on a voluntary basis. It may be the school Head who says "will you drive the Class A kids to a music practice tonight"? Are you truly volunteering? They have a teachers career in their hands and are you able to refuse?

We have all been waiting for a test case for years to define the law. This will probably happen when some over tired teacher, having been at school since 7am preparing lessons, teaching all day then driving across the country after school, crashes the bus with dead kids as a result. Don't let that driver be you. Not only would you have the guilt on your mind, you would, if you lose the case get prosecuted for driving without a licence and without insurance and will be made bankrupt by the civil suit brought by the enraged parents of the dead.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

So, at a guess, if it's a state school, then the debate is about if the use is "social".
If it's a private school, then that isn't relevant because the school is not a non commercial body so it's excluded anyway.

is that right?

[SammyW]

I have been told that a Section 19 permit will exclude me from the work/voluntary problem? Is this the case? Also, does the maximum vehicle weight include passengers? We do have the option of lighter minibuses that should come in under the weight limit.

Just to be clear, if there is any possibility that I would be driving illegally then I wouldn't get behind the wheel, which is why I'm looking for some independent advice. Thanks for all your replies so far, clearly this is quite a grey area.

[Zeeky]

Section 19 gets round the problem of 'hire or reward'. Unless you have D1 entitlement you cannot be paid to drive a minibus.

[R0G]

SammyW said:

I have been told that a Section 19 permit will exclude me from the work/voluntary problem? Is this the case? Also, does the maximum vehicle weight include passengers? We do have the option of lighter minibuses that should come in under the weight limit.

Just to be clear, if there is any possibility that I would be driving illegally then I wouldn't get behind the wheel, which is why I'm looking for some independent advice. Thanks for all your replies so far, clearly this is quite a grey area.

The plated weight (GVW) cannot exceed 3500 kgs and that is with or without passengers

the GVW does not change with the weight that is put into it

GVW is the max weight it can legally be

[TC99]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

So, at a guess, if it's a state school, then the debate is about if the use is "social".
If it's a private school, then that isn't relevant because the school is not a non commercial body so it's excluded anyway.

is that right?

It depends on the status of the school. Most private schools are charities, so no problem. Some however are profit making companies and require an O licence and unrestricted D licence holders to drive.