Getting out of the BiB's way etiquette.

[Hungrymc]

Chrisgr31 said:

Whilst I understand those who are concerned about getting charged for an offence they might commit whilst trying to get out the way if you (or a loved one) was on the other end of that blue light journey waiting for the police, ambulance, fire engine etc you would be very grateful for every second saved, as waiting a second feels like waiting for a minute!

So I would do whatever is necessary to get out the way.

I'd honestly be as concerned about causing as big an incident as the emergency services are rushing to resolve. You double the speed limit before diving into a bus stop. Which has a diesel spill and you end up taking the bus que out. To be clear, I agree your principle that we need to get out of the way, we just need to be very careful of not making bad decisions due to the pressure and the disorientation of these situations. I've seen people just freeze and stop in the middle of the road as they're in total panic. I've also seen people mount the foot path and cause pedestrians to jump out of the way.

[Finlandia]

Chrisgr31 said:

Whilst I understand those who are concerned about getting charged for an offence they might commit whilst trying to get out the way if you (or a loved one) was on the other end of that blue light journey waiting for the police, ambulance, fire engine etc you would be very grateful for every second saved, as waiting a second feels like waiting for a minute!

So I would do whatever is necessary to get out the way.

On the other hand you may be on 9 points and allowing the ambulance through just got you banned and maybe that means your job is gone, your life in tatters.

[Snowboy]

I have jumped red light many times for cops and ambulances.
In fact, I crossed a red light on a roundabout just last week to let a cop go past.

I will continue to do so if neccesary.
If I ever end up in court because of it I will state my case and will expect to be "found innocent".
If I do get three points and a fine I will be mightily pissed off.

But, I will still get out the way and risk more points if I'm in that situation again.

I risk three points dozens of times a week by speeding for fun, risking three points occasionally for something potentially serious seems a fair balance.

[br d]

Hungrymc said:

I'd honestly be as concerned about causing as big an incident as the emergency services are rushing to resolve. You double the speed limit before diving into a bus stop. Which has a diesel spill and you end up taking the bus que out. To be clear, I agree your principle that we need to get out of the way, we just need to be very careful of not making bad decisions due to the pressure and the disorientation of these situations. I've seen people just freeze and stop in the middle of the road as they're in total panic. I've also seen people mount the foot path and cause pedestrians to jump out of the way.

Fair points Hungry.
Just to clarify, this was a dry bright day and there were no people at the bus stop or walking along the pavement. Had a Mum and a couple of kids been ambling along when I exited the roundabout I wouldn't have screamed pass them, that would have changed my response.
Of course putting your foot down in a thirty always caries risks whatever the conditions but I just tried to trade off the best course of action with the circumstances.

[dacouch]

Mk3Spitfire said:

Very true. But, and I am not sure about this, I would imagine there would be procedures for mitigation under these circumstances. If there isn't, it's terrible, and there absolutely should be and I would go to court every time if it was me being done.

Mitigation of moving for an emergency vehicle is rarely accepted.

If a police officer instructs you to go through the ref traffic light then that would be accepted as mitigation but you would generally need evidence from the police officer.

I had an Italian friend as a passenger in my car who could not believe cars did not go through red lights to let emergency vehicles through as apparently it's compulsory in Italy

[Derek Smith]

Finlandia said:

Chrisgr31 said:

Whilst I understand those who are concerned about getting charged for an offence they might commit whilst trying to get out the way if you (or a loved one) was on the other end of that blue light journey waiting for the police, ambulance, fire engine etc you would be very grateful for every second saved, as waiting a second feels like waiting for a minute!

So I would do whatever is necessary to get out the way.

On the other hand you may be on 9 points and allowing the ambulance through just got you banned and maybe that means your job is gone, your life in tatters.

If you are signaled by a police officer to ignore a red ATS, i.e. that they are for the time being engaged in the regulation of traffic, then it is a complete defence. In fact, there is no offence, the police officer over-rides the ATS. My advice would be to take the index number of the car and any other identification marks.

This doesn't work for ambulance or other emergency service.

My preference was for people to drive normally, not do anything precipitous, and just try to leave a gap.

The regulars on here know that I'm not one for anecdotes, but here one against my normal habit.

There were two area cars in the City, both Triumph 2500 Pi, one unmarked in the sense of jam sandwich and light array, but not with regards dents and stuff, the other emblazoned in red lines down the side, masses of pyrotechnics on the roof and POLICE on the bonnet and boot, careful placed where it could not be read by other drivers.

Urgent call, police officer in trouble (10:20 in the jargon in those days) in the MPD. Both cars, Alpha 7 and Alpha 8 responded and the unmarked car turned into Fleet Street in front of the other marked patrol car. At Fleet Street, junction with Fetter Lane, traffic stopped, reducing the width of the road and both cars slowed although the radio operator in the marked car thought it might be fun to gesticulate towards the car in front.

A cabbie - are you ahead of me yet? - decided to sacrifice his cab for the good of the people and rammed the unmarked car, pushing it into the centre island.

Talk about laugh. No one did, at least at the scene.

Don't try this at home.

I was told to leave this out of my book because no one would believe it but it happened. Honest.

I was told not to mention the fact that the unmarked car (no idea of make or model in those days) responded to a burglary. It turned out to be the great train robbery gang getting money to pay for the big job. They came out with guns, demanded the keys, and drove off in the area car.

Luckily, the police had a full description and an index number.

[Mk3Spitfire]

dacouch said:

Mitigation of moving for an emergency vehicle is rarely accepted.

If a police officer instructs you to go through the ref traffic light then that would be accepted as mitigation but you would generally need evidence from the police officer.
Italy

Tough call then. I cause people to do this on a daily basis. It's pretty bad that the courts don't look favourably on people unlucky enough to get caught.

[dacouch]

Mk3Spitfire said:

Tough call then. I cause people to do this on a daily basis. It's pretty bad that the courts don't look favourably on people unlucky enough to get caught.

I assume it's why emergency vehicle tend to switch their sirens off at traffic lights to prevent joe public shooting through red lights.

[Snowboy]

dacouch said:

Mitigation of moving for an emergency vehicle is rarely accepted.

-snip-

May I ask where you get that comment?
Personal experience, pub discussion, law journals?

I have heard a couple of people say it; but I've never seen any proof.
Also, the people who get tickets for these situations always seem to be "friends of mates".
I don't recall a single first hand story.

[Hungrymc]

br d said:

Fair points Hungry.
Just to clarify, this was a dry bright day and there were no people at the bus stop or walking along the pavement. Had a Mum and a couple of kids been ambling along when I exited the roundabout I wouldn't have screamed pass them, that would have changed my response.
Of course putting your foot down in a thirty always caries risks whatever the conditions but I just tried to trade off the best course of action with the circumstances.

I understand and I'm not criticising your decision. My point really was that it can be a very difficult and disorientating position to be in - so we need to be particularly careful. Am sure you made a good call in the situation you were presented with.

[craigjm]

Mk3Spitfire said:

Disgusting. But did they just take the points, or did it go to court? SURELY magistrates also have brains? And morals for that matter.

Went to court and was found guilty

[Mk3Spitfire]

craigjm said:

Went to court and was found guilty

Well that's a shocking decision and sorry to hear it.

[craigjm]

Mk3Spitfire said:

Well that's a shocking decision and sorry to hear it.

Yeah the magistrates held to the fact that they should not move unless it is safe to do so and over a red light even a few feet was deemed not safe!

[dacouch]

Snowboy said:

May I ask where you get that comment?
Personal experience, pub discussion, law journals?

I have heard a couple of people say it; but I've never seen any proof.
Also, the people who get tickets for these situations always seem to be "friends of mates".
I don't recall a single first hand story.

There's plenty across the internet eg people asking for advice after receiving a bus lane or traffic light ticket, there's also specific advice on police websites to the effect you should not drive through the red light unless directed.

There are also news paper reports of drivers fined

[pork911]

dacouch said:

There's plenty across the internet eg people asking for advice after receiving a bus lane or traffic light ticket,

wouldn't be those sorts of threads testing the water on an imaginative defence?

[V8 Fettler]

It's bizarre to observe the sheeple slowing to create an obstruction in both lanes of a single carriageway as the blue lights appear.

[paintman]

dacouch said:

I assume it's why emergency vehicle tend to switch their sirens off at traffic lights to prevent joe public shooting through red lights.

Which is what I usually did if it was apparent that there was nowhere for anyone to go. Last thing I wanted was a collision in front of me. And often didn't use the sirens at all due to people ahead hearing them at the last moment & doing something dangerous - to clarify that, on the approach to a junction/lights etc I would already have decided the route I intended to take & you really don't need someone suddenly swerving in front of you thinking they are getting out of your way.

[Finlandia]

Derek Smith said:

Talk about laugh.

Indeed, thanks for sharing

[rohrl]

Mk3Spitfire said:

craigjm said:

Went to court and was found guilty

Well that's a shocking decision and sorry to hear it.

You can see why someone whose livelihood is dependent upon their holding a valid driving licence might be loath to jump a red light to assist though.

Hard to believe that the court could be so inflexible and ignore the bigger picture but c'est la vie.

[rewc]

Mk3Spitfire said:

dacouch said:

Mitigation of moving for an emergency vehicle is rarely accepted.

If a police officer instructs you to go through the ref traffic light then that would be accepted as mitigation but you would generally need evidence from the police officer.
Italy

Tough call then. I cause people to do this on a daily basis. It's pretty bad that the courts don't look favourably on people unlucky enough to get caught.

How do you cause people to do it. Are you on foot or are you in the emergency vehicle waving your arms about or some such thing?

It is the Police who investigate and take the case to the CPS. You would expect the Police to investigate particularly where an automatic camera is triggered and the camera partnership is involved. In the case linked the Police eventually rescinded the FPN after the bad publicity and perceived harm it would cause to their drivers.
The Driving Standards Agency said there are no official guidelines on motorists moving out of the way of emergency vehicles.
A spokesman said Rule 219 of the Highway Code says motorists should consider the route of the emergency vehicle and take appropriate action to allow it to pass while complying with traffic signs.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...

This is what the Police say;

http://www.sussex.police.uk/help-centre/ask-us/roa...

Edited by rewc on Thursday 27th February 11:19