Getting out of the BiB's way etiquette.
Discussion
I was in the Z06 a couple of years ago when a police car came up behind me. I knew the road, we were just into a long twisty section with no where they could safely pass for a good couple of miles or so. I acknowledged to them I knew they were there and went, only slowing back down to the speed limit, signalling and pulling in as much as I could when I exited the last bend on to a short straight. Passenger waved thank you as they went by. As others have said, seconds can count depending on the emergency.
Traffic lights is tricky. There's usually room to cross the light to clear the way without crossing into the junction. However a red light cam will still flash you. These days I will always check to see if there is a camera, if there is I won't budge, if there isn't I will move.
On the flip side are the drivers that just stop in the middle of the road causing a road block. I was in the Blackwell tunnel once when a police car was coming through. Myself and everybody behind me zipped together with the traffic in the inside lane, clearing their way. Right up to the Micra I was following. After them sitting behind her for ages she finally spotted them and stopped dead!
Traffic lights is tricky. There's usually room to cross the light to clear the way without crossing into the junction. However a red light cam will still flash you. These days I will always check to see if there is a camera, if there is I won't budge, if there isn't I will move.
On the flip side are the drivers that just stop in the middle of the road causing a road block. I was in the Blackwell tunnel once when a police car was coming through. Myself and everybody behind me zipped together with the traffic in the inside lane, clearing their way. Right up to the Micra I was following. After them sitting behind her for ages she finally spotted them and stopped dead!
rewc said:
A spokesman said Rule 219 of the Highway Code says motorists should consider the route of the emergency vehicle and take appropriate action to allow it to pass while complying with traffic signs.
This is what the Police say;
http://www.sussex.police.uk/help-centre/ask-us/roa...
The Sussex advice sates:This is what the Police say;
http://www.sussex.police.uk/help-centre/ask-us/roa...
the blue lights may be a signal for you to pull over and stop.
Has the law changed? there used to be a stated case which said that the blues and twos were not a signal to stop. In other words, they were not multi-function devices. There still has to be a signal to the driver that they are required to stop.
It is worth remembering that an indication from a police officer is a sign under the Road Traffic Act and would override any other sign. Failure to comply with a signal to ignore automatic traffic signals might be construed to be an offence.
Someone earlier on said a court decided that it was dangerous to go against the indication of red ATS, but it should be remembered that this is probably just a decision of a magistrate court. A lot will depend on how the defendant says what he actually did.
Derek Smith said:
It is worth remembering that an indication from a police officer is a sign under the Road Traffic Act and would override any other sign. Failure to comply with a signal to ignore automatic traffic signals might be construed to be an offence.
Someone earlier on said a court decided that it was dangerous to go against the indication of red ATS, but it should be remembered that this is probably just a decision of a magistrate court. A lot will depend on how the defendant says what he actually did.
The advice on that Sussex website as regards red traffic lights is unequivocal.Someone earlier on said a court decided that it was dangerous to go against the indication of red ATS, but it should be remembered that this is probably just a decision of a magistrate court. A lot will depend on how the defendant says what he actually did.
Sussex Police said:
Remember: Emergency vehicle drivers are specially trained and have exemptions to the law that you don't have, so you must not go through red lights or speed to allow them to pass.
That doesn't say you must not go through red lights unless a police officer indicates that you should.I move. I've mounted kerbs and all sorts and I will run a red light even knowing I may get a ticket (I should add I wrote to my MP about this and he was astonished that you could be prosecuted for running a red light to get out of the way of the emergency services).
Now, to me there should be a change to this law.
Now, to me there should be a change to this law.
rohrl said:
Derek Smith said:
It is worth remembering that an indication from a police officer is a sign under the Road Traffic Act and would override any other sign. Failure to comply with a signal to ignore automatic traffic signals might be construed to be an offence.
Someone earlier on said a court decided that it was dangerous to go against the indication of red ATS, but it should be remembered that this is probably just a decision of a magistrate court. A lot will depend on how the defendant says what he actually did.
The advice on that Sussex website as regards red traffic lights is unequivocal.Someone earlier on said a court decided that it was dangerous to go against the indication of red ATS, but it should be remembered that this is probably just a decision of a magistrate court. A lot will depend on how the defendant says what he actually did.
Sussex Police said:
Remember: Emergency vehicle drivers are specially trained and have exemptions to the law that you don't have, so you must not go through red lights or speed to allow them to pass.
That doesn't say you must not go through red lights unless a police officer indicates that you should.The signal from a police officer overrides that of an automatic signal.
If there was a disabled vehicle in the carriageway blocking passage by a road island with a Keep Left sign, and a police officer on point duty indicating you to go against the indication of the sign, would you just sit there and point out to the officer the sign on the bollard?
Derek Smith said:
One 'trick' that I used to do when on point duty at a difficult location where there were traffic lights was to switch them all onto red and then indicate to each driver to go ahead.
The signal from a police officer overrides that of an automatic signal.
If there was a disabled vehicle in the carriageway blocking passage by a road island with a Keep Left sign, and a police officer on point duty indicating you to go against the indication of the sign, would you just sit there and point out to the officer the sign on the bollard?
A signal from a Police Officer on point duty is one thing, a person in an emergency vehicle behind you waving his arms about is something else. It would of course be a lot more sensible if emergency vehicle drivers had the law reinforced to them. It is for them to find a way round an obstruction without expecting others to break the law.The signal from a police officer overrides that of an automatic signal.
If there was a disabled vehicle in the carriageway blocking passage by a road island with a Keep Left sign, and a police officer on point duty indicating you to go against the indication of the sign, would you just sit there and point out to the officer the sign on the bollard?
Here's my comments on this...
From what I understand, if you try to 'do the right thing' and trigger a red-light camera by trying to allow an emergency vehicle through, then despite the mitigating circumstances, it's still an 'absolute offence' and you'll still cop the fine and points, even if you do go to court and argue the toss.
Sadly, there are already many instances of case law which backs this up - rightly or wrongly.
My next comment is this - as a Student Paramedic, I have already spent a couple of months on placement on Ambulances, with many of our runs being full 'blue light' runs to a job.
Strangely, and something which has surprised me - is that despite being despatched by control to run to the case on full emergency 'blue lights' - it has been clear to everyone in the Ambulance, by looking at the data supplied to us via our data terminals, that a blue-light run 'probably' wasn't necessary - and this was then very obvious and a vindicated feeling, once arriving at the scene.
I would suggest that, from all of the 'full-on emergency blue light' runs that we have conducted recently, that maybe 30% of the jobs have vindicated and justified that decision by control. To my mind, the rest of the jobs have put ours, and the general public's safety, at an unecessary risk, by driving in this manner in a full emergency mode.
It just wasn't necessary in the slightest, and if we'd had an injurious accident to us or the general public on the way, or indeed caused someone to trigger a camera and cop a nicking for it, then it wasn't really justified in any way at all.
I've no idea what the criteria are for the Police to be despatched on full blues and twos - maybe they're generally more important? But WRT Ambulance responses, in my area at least - I haven't seen the need to drive in such a manner in, as I say, many of the cases.
Maybe there are higher powers, algorythims and forces at work that are well beyond my simple understanding though! Or maybe they're just synthetic and arbitrary targets? I've no idea
From what I understand, if you try to 'do the right thing' and trigger a red-light camera by trying to allow an emergency vehicle through, then despite the mitigating circumstances, it's still an 'absolute offence' and you'll still cop the fine and points, even if you do go to court and argue the toss.
Sadly, there are already many instances of case law which backs this up - rightly or wrongly.
My next comment is this - as a Student Paramedic, I have already spent a couple of months on placement on Ambulances, with many of our runs being full 'blue light' runs to a job.
Strangely, and something which has surprised me - is that despite being despatched by control to run to the case on full emergency 'blue lights' - it has been clear to everyone in the Ambulance, by looking at the data supplied to us via our data terminals, that a blue-light run 'probably' wasn't necessary - and this was then very obvious and a vindicated feeling, once arriving at the scene.
I would suggest that, from all of the 'full-on emergency blue light' runs that we have conducted recently, that maybe 30% of the jobs have vindicated and justified that decision by control. To my mind, the rest of the jobs have put ours, and the general public's safety, at an unecessary risk, by driving in this manner in a full emergency mode.
It just wasn't necessary in the slightest, and if we'd had an injurious accident to us or the general public on the way, or indeed caused someone to trigger a camera and cop a nicking for it, then it wasn't really justified in any way at all.
I've no idea what the criteria are for the Police to be despatched on full blues and twos - maybe they're generally more important? But WRT Ambulance responses, in my area at least - I haven't seen the need to drive in such a manner in, as I say, many of the cases.
Maybe there are higher powers, algorythims and forces at work that are well beyond my simple understanding though! Or maybe they're just synthetic and arbitrary targets? I've no idea
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Strangely, and something which has surprised me - is that despite being despatched by control to run to the case on full emergency 'blue lights' - it has been clear to everyone in the Ambulance, by looking at the data supplied to us via our data terminals, that a blue-light run 'probably' wasn't necessary - and this was then very obvious and a vindicated feeling, once arriving at the scene.
Think yourself lucky you get enough information to make that call in the first instance. From a Police perspective, details of incidents are often so sketchy it has to be presumed that an immediate response is required (often to arrive on scene to find that it wasn't, as per your experiences).Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Here's my comments on this...
From what I understand, if you try to 'do the right thing' and trigger a red-light camera by trying to allow an emergency vehicle through, then despite the mitigating circumstances, it's still an 'absolute offence' and you'll still cop the fine and points, even if you do go to court and argue the toss.
Sadly, there are already many instances of case law which backs this up - rightly or wrongly.
My next comment is this - as a Student Paramedic, I have already spent a couple of months on placement on Ambulances, with many of our runs being full 'blue light' runs to a job.
Strangely, and something which has surprised me - is that despite being despatched by control to run to the case on full emergency 'blue lights' - it has been clear to everyone in the Ambulance, by looking at the data supplied to us via our data terminals, that a blue-light run 'probably' wasn't necessary - and this was then very obvious and a vindicated feeling, once arriving at the scene.
I would suggest that, from all of the 'full-on emergency blue light' runs that we have conducted recently, that maybe 30% of the jobs have vindicated and justified that decision by control. To my mind, the rest of the jobs have put ours, and the general public's safety, at an unecessary risk, by driving in this manner in a full emergency mode.
It just wasn't necessary in the slightest, and if we'd had an injurious accident to us or the general public on the way, or indeed caused someone to trigger a camera and cop a nicking for it, then it wasn't really justified in any way at all.
I've no idea what the criteria are for the Police to be despatched on full blues and twos - maybe they're generally more important? But WRT Ambulance responses, in my area at least - I haven't seen the need to drive in such a manner in, as I say, many of the cases.
Maybe there are higher powers, algorythims and forces at work that are well beyond my simple understanding though! Or maybe they're just synthetic and arbitrary targets? I've no idea
From what I understand, if you try to 'do the right thing' and trigger a red-light camera by trying to allow an emergency vehicle through, then despite the mitigating circumstances, it's still an 'absolute offence' and you'll still cop the fine and points, even if you do go to court and argue the toss.
Sadly, there are already many instances of case law which backs this up - rightly or wrongly.
My next comment is this - as a Student Paramedic, I have already spent a couple of months on placement on Ambulances, with many of our runs being full 'blue light' runs to a job.
Strangely, and something which has surprised me - is that despite being despatched by control to run to the case on full emergency 'blue lights' - it has been clear to everyone in the Ambulance, by looking at the data supplied to us via our data terminals, that a blue-light run 'probably' wasn't necessary - and this was then very obvious and a vindicated feeling, once arriving at the scene.
I would suggest that, from all of the 'full-on emergency blue light' runs that we have conducted recently, that maybe 30% of the jobs have vindicated and justified that decision by control. To my mind, the rest of the jobs have put ours, and the general public's safety, at an unecessary risk, by driving in this manner in a full emergency mode.
It just wasn't necessary in the slightest, and if we'd had an injurious accident to us or the general public on the way, or indeed caused someone to trigger a camera and cop a nicking for it, then it wasn't really justified in any way at all.
I've no idea what the criteria are for the Police to be despatched on full blues and twos - maybe they're generally more important? But WRT Ambulance responses, in my area at least - I haven't seen the need to drive in such a manner in, as I say, many of the cases.
Maybe there are higher powers, algorythims and forces at work that are well beyond my simple understanding though! Or maybe they're just synthetic and arbitrary targets? I've no idea
could this be to do with the stopwatch that is on the jobs e.g. all our responses are within so many minutes so it looks good on the pie charts that are made at the end of the year.
Snowboy said:
I have jumped red light many times for cops and ambulances.
In fact, I crossed a red light on a roundabout just last week to let a cop go past.
I will continue to do so if neccesary.
If I ever end up in court because of it I will state my case and will expect to be "found innocent".
If I do get three points and a fine I will be mightily pissed off.
But, I will still get out the way and risk more points if I'm in that situation again.
I risk three points dozens of times a week by speeding for fun, risking three points occasionally for something potentially serious seems a fair balance.
Iam sorry but whilst well intentioned you should not be driving through red lights. They are red for a reason and you are risking your life and others and it's not your place. A police officer can direct you through a red light if they feel it's justified otherwise you don't know what they are doing May just bee training drive and your ploughing through a a red lights also people have been proscutd as the official advice is don't and your excuse is not valid.In fact, I crossed a red light on a roundabout just last week to let a cop go past.
I will continue to do so if neccesary.
If I ever end up in court because of it I will state my case and will expect to be "found innocent".
If I do get three points and a fine I will be mightily pissed off.
But, I will still get out the way and risk more points if I'm in that situation again.
I risk three points dozens of times a week by speeding for fun, risking three points occasionally for something potentially serious seems a fair balance.
jbsportstech said:
Iam sorry but whilst well intentioned you should not be driving through red lights. They are red for a reason and you are risking your life and others and it's not your place. A police officer can direct you through a red light if they feel it's justified otherwise you don't know what they are doing May just bee training drive and your ploughing through a a red lights also people have been proscutd as the official advice is don't and your excuse is not valid.
Just out of interest, God forbid it was your loved one in desperate need of urgent assistance, and I mean life or death, would you still be saying people should sit patiently and wait for the lights to turn green? Honestly now?I've done something similar and got a thankful wave off the bib despite breaking speed limit and looking like I was being pursued!
Situation was I had a unmarked car behind me and I couldn't stop or pull in but the road ahead was clear the copper gave me the pointy forward finger saying go go go so I just maxed it, I actually pulled away a little and I put hazards on and pulled in about a mile up the road. Got a wave and thumbs up despite easily doing 115leptons +++
I could have lost my licence though,
Another cool story bros.
I would judge each situation on merit really.
Situation was I had a unmarked car behind me and I couldn't stop or pull in but the road ahead was clear the copper gave me the pointy forward finger saying go go go so I just maxed it, I actually pulled away a little and I put hazards on and pulled in about a mile up the road. Got a wave and thumbs up despite easily doing 115leptons +++
I could have lost my licence though,
Another cool story bros.
I would judge each situation on merit really.
Mk3Spitfire said:
Just out of interest, God forbid it was your loved one in desperate need of urgent assistance, and I mean life or death, would you still be saying people should sit patiently and wait for the lights to turn green? Honestly now?
Yes this is total crap people take this argument why do police state not why sign up to blue lights aware like many forces and emergency services have if they want you to jump red lights. The point of any emergency service is to get to an incident safety and by jumping red lights for them you risk causing another incident. It's not selfish it's safe common sense which is why the policy is not to jump red lights unless a police officer directs you through.No emergency service driver wants you to they want to make their own way through using the audio and visual warning equipment. The risks of allowing average drivers to jump red lights are so high.
The blue light aware scheme was not out together for a laugh it's to make it clear to motorist what to do when faced with emergency vehicles and they don't want you jumping lights.
It's red for danger you have not warning equipment even emergency service drivers have to give way at a red light.
The best you thing you can do is to stay alert and help plan you stop so they can pass you unhindered I have even put my lights on and stopped blocking junctions or roundabouts to aid other emergency vehicles through.
If you don't have exceptions from speed limits or red lights don't do it. It's not a selfless act it's risking lives to save a live/s. Could turn out the driver is only a on training run and you have caused a 3 car rtc jumping a light.
Simples.
Edited by jbsportstech on Sunday 2nd March 22:34
^^Not entirely sure what exactly you were saying there, but I think you're suggesting that if you knew your loved one was in a life or death situation and there was an emergency vehicle trying to get past you to help them, you'd happily sit at a red light, just in case they're on a "training run"!?
Ok. I don't believe it, but ok.
Ok. I don't believe it, but ok.
Mk3Spitfire said:
^^Not entirely sure what exactly you were saying there, but I think you're suggesting that if you knew your loved one was in a life or death situation and there was an emergency vehicle trying to get past you to help them, you'd happily sit at a red light, just in case they're on a "training run"!?
Ok. I don't believe it, but ok.
Are you saying that motorists should go through red lights or not? The police themselves say that we must not do so as I quoted above and the courts have upheld this by prosecuting those caught doing so, not accepting the presence of an emergency vehicle as a valid excuse.Ok. I don't believe it, but ok.
Comparing the advice given about mounting a kerb, it says only to do so if you're sure that you won't injure a pedestrian. In the normal run of things we aren't generally supposed to drive on a footpath but it's accepted that mounting the kerb to clear a path for an emergency vehicle is a special case and advice is given accordingly. For red traffic lights the advice is unequivocal. There is no wriggle room in the sentence "You must not go through red lights".
rohrl said:
Are you saying that motorists should go through red lights or not? The police themselves say that we must not do so as I quoted above and the courts have upheld this by prosecuting those caught doing so, not accepting the presence of an emergency vehicle as a valid excuse.
Comparing the advice given about mounting a kerb, it says only to do so if you're sure that you won't injure a pedestrian. In the normal run of things we aren't generally supposed to drive on a footpath but it's accepted that mounting the kerb to clear a path for an emergency vehicle is a special case and advice is given accordingly. For red traffic lights the advice is unequivocal. There is no wriggle room in the sentence "You must not go through red lights".
Whilst I understand that spitfire is thinking of others the issue is if the mots motorist were left to jump red lights in the usual panicked manor there would be far more serious incidents. It's been decided and rightly so you cannot risk a life to save a life and so members of the public MUST not attempted to give way at a red light because they feel it's appropriate to aid an emergency vehicle. Comparing the advice given about mounting a kerb, it says only to do so if you're sure that you won't injure a pedestrian. In the normal run of things we aren't generally supposed to drive on a footpath but it's accepted that mounting the kerb to clear a path for an emergency vehicle is a special case and advice is given accordingly. For red traffic lights the advice is unequivocal. There is no wriggle room in the sentence "You must not go through red lights".
I understand this advice if you don't agree then fine but know that your are risking further lives and prosecution.
jbsportstech said:
Iam sorry but whilst well intentioned you should not be driving through red lights. They are red for a reason and you are risking your life and others and it's not your place. A police officer can direct you through a red light if they feel it's justified otherwise you don't know what they are doing May just bee training drive and your ploughing through a a red lights also people have been proscutd as the official advice is don't and your excuse is not valid.
It's obviously not a case of ploughing through red lights without and visibility of other cars. It's about making an educated decision - something that everyone with a driving licence should be able to do.But, I think the best answer is for you to do your thing and I'll do mine.
If we're side by side and a cop wants to get past then you stay still happy you are doing the right thing, and I'll get out if the way happy I'm doing the right thing.
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