Car damaged in office car park - insurance advice please!
Discussion
Jim1556 said:
In July 2011 I was at the Nurburgring, having just done a lap, was trying to get out of the car park which was rather busy at that time, queuing traffic at the roundabout etc. Some idiot in an old Golf pickup rolled back into me (despite me beeping profusely and me having another car behind so nowhere to go). It pierced my front M3 bumper, about the size of a 50p, nothing else...
Jim1556 said:
I f
king hate the car insurance bullst in this country - it should be illegal for them to put my premium up as a result of a non fault claim! Apparently, cos I've had a 'non fault incident' I'm more likely to have another! ON WHAT fkING PLANET DOES THAT MAKE SENSE??? 
Playing devil's advocate - you've given them additional information about your habits, so now they know that you go to places where bad drivers also go, so you are considered more likely to have another encounter with a bad driver.king hate the car insurance bullst in this country - it should be illegal for them to put my premium up as a result of a non fault claim! Apparently, cos I've had a 'non fault incident' I'm more likely to have another! ON WHAT fkING PLANET DOES THAT MAKE SENSE??? dacouch said:
The usual requirement for negligence will apply, it's feasible a handbrake can fail without any negligence on the vehicle owners part and them not to be liable for the subsequent damage.
Feel free to google it, there's plenty on the net about it
There is no requirement for negligence in motor insurance as there is in a home insurance/wind damage scenario which is, I presume, what you're talking about.Feel free to google it, there's plenty on the net about it
Edited by dacouch on Wednesday 12th March 23:22
If somebody's handbrake fails & their vehicle rolls into yours causing damage, their insurance company is liable.
Dr Mike, I agree with the previous posters. Try to sort it out direct with your employers. Your claim is against them. Nowt to do with your insurers or even theirs.
If they wish to involve their insurers that is up to them. Your claim is against your employer.
You only need to involve your insurers if you cannot get any joy out of your employers and wish to claim against your insurance, and that might well exclude claims for accidents on private land, so beware.
PS. Can you please get the van driver to deliver something to my house? My TVR is in desperate need of a front end re-spray!
If they wish to involve their insurers that is up to them. Your claim is against your employer.
You only need to involve your insurers if you cannot get any joy out of your employers and wish to claim against your insurance, and that might well exclude claims for accidents on private land, so beware.
PS. Can you please get the van driver to deliver something to my house? My TVR is in desperate need of a front end re-spray!
General Fluff said:
Think about it, you'd be telling them that you regularly park in an area with a history of vans rolling about unaided. I'd push your premium up if I were your insurer.
That is precisely the kind of flawed logic that I suspect abounds in the insurance industry.Freak occurrences happen. Therefore they have to happen somewhere. The fact that a freak occurrence has happened in the car park of my employer does not establish any kind of history or trend of it happening here, and it does not imply any increased risk of it happening again, either here or to me.
The fact is that vehicles of many different kinds do very occasionally roll away after being parked, sometimes due to failure of the handbrake and sometimes due to the ratchet not being engaged properly. There was nothing special about the van that hit my car; there was nothing special about the person who parked it; and they could have parked it with the wheels pointing in any direction. There was also nothing special about the space I parked in. As insurable events go, this was about as random as it gets.
I acknowledge that many insurable events do indeed indicate an increased risk of recurrence, such as crashes caused by the driver's own bad driving. But it is ludicrous to suggest that a vehicle rolling into my car makes it more likely to happen again.
ETA: Ironically, despite the good advice that I've received on this thread, in hindsight what I really should not have done was post this thread on PH, because now there is public evidence that an "incident" has happened and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's somebody's job to spend half an hour a week trawling motoring forums for threads like this. I reckon I've given myself no choice but to inform them, or risk cancellation in the future.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 13th March 10:37
marshalla said:
Jim1556 said:
In July 2011 I was at the Nurburgring, having just done a lap, was trying to get out of the car park which was rather busy at that time, queuing traffic at the roundabout etc. Some idiot in an old Golf pickup rolled back into me (despite me beeping profusely and me having another car behind so nowhere to go). It pierced my front M3 bumper, about the size of a 50p, nothing else...
Jim1556 said:
I fking hate the car insurance bullst in this country - it should be illegal for them to put my premium up as a result of a non fault claim! Apparently, cos I've had a 'non fault incident' I'm more likely to have another! ON WHAT fkING PLANET DOES THAT MAKE SENSE???
Playing devil's advocate - you've given them additional information about your habits, so now they know that you go to places where bad drivers also go, so you are considered more likely to have another encounter with a bad driver.king hate the car insurance bullst in this country - it should be illegal for them to put my premium up as a result of a non fault claim! Apparently, cos I've had a 'non fault incident' I'm more likely to have another! ON WHAT fkING PLANET DOES THAT MAKE SENSE??? It doesn't always go up - my missus was hit from behind and it made no difference (with LV=) and the way she drives (she'll seem to be continuing, then slows suddenly at give-ways and roundabouts) I'm surprised it hasn't happened more often.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
That is precisely the kind of flawed logic that I suspect abounds in the insurance industry.
Freak occurrences happen. Therefore they have to happen somewhere. The fact that a freak occurrence has happened in the car park of my employer does not establish any kind of history or trend of it happening here, and it does not imply any increased risk of it happening again, either here or to me.
The fact is that vehicles of many different kinds do very occasionally roll away after being parked, sometimes due to failure of the handbrake and sometimes due to the ratchet not being engaged properly. There was nothing special about the van that hit my car; there was nothing special about the person who parked it; and they could have parked it with the wheels pointing in any direction. There was also nothing special about the space I parked in. As insurable events go, this was about as random as it gets.
I acknowledge that many insurable events do indeed indicate an increased risk of recurrence, such as crashes caused by the driver's own bad driving. But it is ludicrous to suggest that a vehicle rolling into my car makes it more likely to happen again.
ETA: Ironically, despite the good advice that I've received on this thread, in hindsight what I really should not have done was post this thread on PH, because now there is public evidence that an "incident" has happened and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's somebody's job to spend half an hour a week trawling motoring forums for threads like this. I reckon I've given myself no choice but to inform them, or risk cancellation in the future.
As messed up as it seems, the fact is that statistically, once you have had an accident of some kind, you are more likely to have another.Freak occurrences happen. Therefore they have to happen somewhere. The fact that a freak occurrence has happened in the car park of my employer does not establish any kind of history or trend of it happening here, and it does not imply any increased risk of it happening again, either here or to me.
The fact is that vehicles of many different kinds do very occasionally roll away after being parked, sometimes due to failure of the handbrake and sometimes due to the ratchet not being engaged properly. There was nothing special about the van that hit my car; there was nothing special about the person who parked it; and they could have parked it with the wheels pointing in any direction. There was also nothing special about the space I parked in. As insurable events go, this was about as random as it gets.
I acknowledge that many insurable events do indeed indicate an increased risk of recurrence, such as crashes caused by the driver's own bad driving. But it is ludicrous to suggest that a vehicle rolling into my car makes it more likely to happen again.
ETA: Ironically, despite the good advice that I've received on this thread, in hindsight what I really should not have done was post this thread on PH, because now there is public evidence that an "incident" has happened and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's somebody's job to spend half an hour a week trawling motoring forums for threads like this. I reckon I've given myself no choice but to inform them, or risk cancellation in the future.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 13th March 10:37
Your argument about there being nothing special about the van, or the person that parked it and therefore it being totally random is also what counts against you; the fact is YOU randomly parked you car there and something happened to it and your insurance company insure YOU.
I'm not having a pop at you and nor do I work in insurance, just pointing it out.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
General Fluff said:
Think about it, you'd be telling them that you regularly park in an area with a history of vans rolling about unaided. I'd push your premium up if I were your insurer.
That is precisely the kind of flawed logic that I suspect abounds in the insurance industry.Freak occurrences happen. Therefore they have to happen somewhere. The fact that a freak occurrence has happened in the car park of my employer does not establish any kind of history or trend of it happening here, and it does not imply any increased risk of it happening again, either here or to me.
The fact is that vehicles of many different kinds do very occasionally roll away after being parked, sometimes due to failure of the handbrake and sometimes due to the ratchet not being engaged properly. There was nothing special about the van that hit my car; there was nothing special about the person who parked it; and they could have parked it with the wheels pointing in any direction. There was also nothing special about the space I parked in. As insurable events go, this was about as random as it gets.
I acknowledge that many insurable events do indeed indicate an increased risk of recurrence, such as crashes caused by the driver's own bad driving. But it is ludicrous to suggest that a vehicle rolling into my car makes it more likely to happen again.
ETA: Ironically, despite the good advice that I've received on this thread, in hindsight what I really should not have done was post this thread on PH, because now there is public evidence that an "incident" has happened and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's somebody's job to spend half an hour a week trawling motoring forums for threads like this. I reckon I've given myself no choice but to inform them, or risk cancellation in the future.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 13th March 10:37
Then there's evidence that other drivers in your work car park leave handbrakes off. Or else other vehicles parked there have faulty handbrakes. Again, new risk information for the insurance company.
Remember insurance is calculated against all risks for all insured parties. So even if just 1 customer out of 100,000 customers has a repeat incident like yours then the risk is spread out to all parties in similar circumstances.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
That is precisely the kind of flawed logic that I suspect abounds in the insurance industry.
Freak occurrences happen. Therefore they have to happen somewhere. The fact that a freak occurrence has happened in the car park of my employer does not establish any kind of history or trend of it happening here, and it does not imply any increased risk of it happening again, either here or to me.
The fact is that vehicles of many different kinds do very occasionally roll away after being parked, sometimes due to failure of the handbrake and sometimes due to the ratchet not being engaged properly. There was nothing special about the van that hit my car; there was nothing special about the person who parked it; and they could have parked it with the wheels pointing in any direction. There was also nothing special about the space I parked in. As insurable events go, this was about as random as it gets.
I acknowledge that many insurable events do indeed indicate an increased risk of recurrence, such as crashes caused by the driver's own bad driving. But it is ludicrous to suggest that a vehicle rolling into my car makes it more likely to happen again.
ETA: Ironically, despite the good advice that I've received on this thread, in hindsight what I really should not have done was post this thread on PH, because now there is public evidence that an "incident" has happened and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's somebody's job to spend half an hour a week trawling motoring forums for threads like this. I reckon I've given myself no choice but to inform them, or risk cancellation in the future.
Delete your fist post, nobody has quoted you then its gone.Freak occurrences happen. Therefore they have to happen somewhere. The fact that a freak occurrence has happened in the car park of my employer does not establish any kind of history or trend of it happening here, and it does not imply any increased risk of it happening again, either here or to me.
The fact is that vehicles of many different kinds do very occasionally roll away after being parked, sometimes due to failure of the handbrake and sometimes due to the ratchet not being engaged properly. There was nothing special about the van that hit my car; there was nothing special about the person who parked it; and they could have parked it with the wheels pointing in any direction. There was also nothing special about the space I parked in. As insurable events go, this was about as random as it gets.
I acknowledge that many insurable events do indeed indicate an increased risk of recurrence, such as crashes caused by the driver's own bad driving. But it is ludicrous to suggest that a vehicle rolling into my car makes it more likely to happen again.
ETA: Ironically, despite the good advice that I've received on this thread, in hindsight what I really should not have done was post this thread on PH, because now there is public evidence that an "incident" has happened and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's somebody's job to spend half an hour a week trawling motoring forums for threads like this. I reckon I've given myself no choice but to inform them, or risk cancellation in the future.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 13th March 10:37
Centurion07 said:
There is no requirement for negligence in motor insurance as there is in a home insurance/wind damage scenario which is, I presume, what you're talking about.
If somebody's handbrake fails & their vehicle rolls into yours causing damage, their insurance company is liable.
Really? What's your source for this information?If somebody's handbrake fails & their vehicle rolls into yours causing damage, their insurance company is liable.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Centurion07 said:
There is no requirement for negligence in motor insurance as there is in a home insurance/wind damage scenario which is, I presume, what you're talking about.
If somebody's handbrake fails & their vehicle rolls into yours causing damage, their insurance company is liable.
Really? What's your source for this information?If somebody's handbrake fails & their vehicle rolls into yours causing damage, their insurance company is liable.
If someone steals your car after you left the door unlocked and key in the ignition, & writes it off damaging other people's vehicles/property, YOUR insurance company will pay out for that damage. Your insurance company will pay out to those third parties even if your car was locked up in a locked garage and you had done everything you could to prevent it being stolen. There is no requirement to prove negligence or otherwise. YOUR car has damaged someone else's property and therefore will pay out. It's not the same as the whole "the wind blew my fence onto my neighbour's car and he wants to claim on my insurance" scenario.
If you have information to the contrary then let's see it.
Edited by Centurion07 on Thursday 13th March 14:26
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
That is precisely the kind of flawed logic that I suspect abounds in the insurance industry.
Freak occurrences happen. Therefore they have to happen somewhere. The fact that a freak occurrence has happened in the car park of my employer does not establish any kind of history or trend of it happening here, and it does not imply any increased risk of it happening again, either here or to me.
The fact is that vehicles of many different kinds do very occasionally roll away after being parked, sometimes due to failure of the handbrake and sometimes due to the ratchet not being engaged properly. There was nothing special about the van that hit my car; there was nothing special about the person who parked it; and they could have parked it with the wheels pointing in any direction. There was also nothing special about the space I parked in. As insurable events go, this was about as random as it gets.
I acknowledge that many insurable events do indeed indicate an increased risk of recurrence, such as crashes caused by the driver's own bad driving. But it is ludicrous to suggest that a vehicle rolling into my car makes it more likely to happen again.
ETA: Ironically, despite the good advice that I've received on this thread, in hindsight what I really should not have done was post this thread on PH, because now there is public evidence that an "incident" has happened and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's somebody's job to spend half an hour a week trawling motoring forums for threads like this. I reckon I've given myself no choice but to inform them, or risk cancellation in the future.
If your company repair it through their vehicle insurance then the incident will be recorded against your VIN so your insurance company will know come renewal. If they pay you cash and you get it done yourself then, as far as I know, it won't.Freak occurrences happen. Therefore they have to happen somewhere. The fact that a freak occurrence has happened in the car park of my employer does not establish any kind of history or trend of it happening here, and it does not imply any increased risk of it happening again, either here or to me.
The fact is that vehicles of many different kinds do very occasionally roll away after being parked, sometimes due to failure of the handbrake and sometimes due to the ratchet not being engaged properly. There was nothing special about the van that hit my car; there was nothing special about the person who parked it; and they could have parked it with the wheels pointing in any direction. There was also nothing special about the space I parked in. As insurable events go, this was about as random as it gets.
I acknowledge that many insurable events do indeed indicate an increased risk of recurrence, such as crashes caused by the driver's own bad driving. But it is ludicrous to suggest that a vehicle rolling into my car makes it more likely to happen again.
ETA: Ironically, despite the good advice that I've received on this thread, in hindsight what I really should not have done was post this thread on PH, because now there is public evidence that an "incident" has happened and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's somebody's job to spend half an hour a week trawling motoring forums for threads like this. I reckon I've given myself no choice but to inform them, or risk cancellation in the future.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 13th March 10:37
Centurion07 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Centurion07 said:
There is no requirement for negligence in motor insurance as there is in a home insurance/wind damage scenario which is, I presume, what you're talking about.
If somebody's handbrake fails & their vehicle rolls into yours causing damage, their insurance company is liable.
Really? What's your source for this information?If somebody's handbrake fails & their vehicle rolls into yours causing damage, their insurance company is liable.
If someone steals your car after you left the door unlocked and key in the ignition, & writes it off damaging other people's vehicles/property, YOUR insurance company will pay out for that damage. Your insurance company will pay out to those third parties even if your car was locked up in a locked garage and you had done everything you could to prevent it being stolen. There is no requirement to prove negligence or otherwise. YOUR car has damaged someone else's property and therefore will pay out. It's not the same as the whole "the wind blew my fence onto my neighbour's car and he wants to claim on my insurance" scenario.
If you have information to the contrary then let's see it.
Edited by Centurion07 on Thursday 13th March 14:26
However, a friend of mine's father recently had a heart attack at the wheel. He lost consciousness and hit a parked car. He had no history of heart problems before and was in fine fettle up to the event. His insurers paid for his own damage as he had comp cover, but they repudiated the third party claim on the basis that he was not negligent. And he wasn't. He had done nothing wrong. The owner of the parked car luckily had comp cover too so was able to claim off his own policy.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Centurion07 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Centurion07 said:
There is no requirement for negligence in motor insurance as there is in a home insurance/wind damage scenario which is, I presume, what you're talking about.
If somebody's handbrake fails & their vehicle rolls into yours causing damage, their insurance company is liable.
Really? What's your source for this information?If somebody's handbrake fails & their vehicle rolls into yours causing damage, their insurance company is liable.
If someone steals your car after you left the door unlocked and key in the ignition, & writes it off damaging other people's vehicles/property, YOUR insurance company will pay out for that damage. Your insurance company will pay out to those third parties even if your car was locked up in a locked garage and you had done everything you could to prevent it being stolen. There is no requirement to prove negligence or otherwise. YOUR car has damaged someone else's property and therefore will pay out. It's not the same as the whole "the wind blew my fence onto my neighbour's car and he wants to claim on my insurance" scenario.
If you have information to the contrary then let's see it.
Edited by Centurion07 on Thursday 13th March 14:26
However, a friend of mine's father recently had a heart attack at the wheel. He lost consciousness and hit a parked car. He had no history of heart problems before and was in fine fettle up to the event. His insurers paid for his own damage as he had comp cover, but they repudiated the third party claim on the basis that he was not negligent. And he wasn't. He had done nothing wrong. The owner of the parked car luckily had comp cover too so was able to claim off his own policy.
ks. There ARE situations where negligence would have to be proven; a lorry tyre suffering a blowout and damaging following vehicles would require a degree of negligence on the part of the lorry's operators.I still don't think OP's situation would/SHOULD fall into that category though.
As for the situation you described, I don't see how they can refuse a claim against their driver when had it been stolen and crashed, they would have paid out?
Centurion07 said:
As for the situation you described, I don't see how they can refuse a claim against their driver when had it been stolen and crashed, they would have paid out?
I agree it's a bit daft. As car theft is still quite common, and joy riding used to be very common a few years back, the MIB put in force regulations that Insurers agreed to compensate those hit by stolen cars. That's nothing to do with the law of the land, but more akin to a controlling trade association. But the common law principles of tort apply to motor insurance in general, as they do with household insurance. I'm not a lawyer, but from memory from the law I have studied, it's all to do with snails in ginger beer, carbolic smoke balls, and Donohue v Stephenson.
Hope that clarifies it.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I agree it's a bit daft. As car theft is still quite common, and joy riding used to be very common a few years back, the MIB put in force regulations that Insurers agreed to compensate those hit by stolen cars. That's nothing to do with the law of the land, but more akin to a controlling trade association.
But the common law principles of tort apply to motor insurance in general, as they do with household insurance. I'm not a lawyer, but from memory from the law I have studied, it's all to do with snails in ginger beer, carbolic smoke balls, and Donohue v Stephenson.
Hope that clarifies it.
That bit does!But the common law principles of tort apply to motor insurance in general, as they do with household insurance. I'm not a lawyer, but from memory from the law I have studied, it's all to do with snails in ginger beer, carbolic smoke balls, and Donohue v Stephenson.
Hope that clarifies it.
Centurion07 said:
It's called common sense.
If someone steals your car after you left the door unlocked and key in the ignition, & writes it off damaging other people's vehicles/property, YOUR insurance company will pay out for that damage. Your insurance company will pay out to those third parties even if your car was locked up in a locked garage and you had done everything you could to prevent it being stolen. There is no requirement to prove negligence or otherwise. YOUR car has damaged someone else's property and therefore will pay out. It's not the same as the whole "the wind blew my fence onto my neighbour's car and he wants to claim on my insurance" scenario.
If you have information to the contrary then let's see it.
There are circumstances where your Insurers would not technically be liable due to negligence for third party claims from your stolen car eg if the driver is not identified.If someone steals your car after you left the door unlocked and key in the ignition, & writes it off damaging other people's vehicles/property, YOUR insurance company will pay out for that damage. Your insurance company will pay out to those third parties even if your car was locked up in a locked garage and you had done everything you could to prevent it being stolen. There is no requirement to prove negligence or otherwise. YOUR car has damaged someone else's property and therefore will pay out. It's not the same as the whole "the wind blew my fence onto my neighbour's car and he wants to claim on my insurance" scenario.
If you have information to the contrary then let's see it.
Edited by Centurion07 on Thursday 13th March 14:26
The same applies with some accidents caused by a sudden medical event eg heart attack which involve no negligence so the Insurer is not liable.
The same can apply to skidding on ice in certain rare circumstances you can not be held negligent / liable.
The same principle can apply to a hand brake failing if the car has been well maintained
marshalla said:
Playing devil's advocate - you've given them additional information about your habits, so now they know that you go to places where bad drivers also go, so you are considered more likely to have another encounter with a bad driver.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Errr...planet Earth I think.
As General Fluff says, frustrating but true.
There are bad drivers everywhere, in every country. The incident I had could've happened anywhere on an uphill stretch (traffic lights, roundabout, T-junction etc) I fail to see how this makes anything more likely! The other party simply wasn't paying attention!As General Fluff says, frustrating but true.
I could understand if I parked regularly on a narrow road and people were always claiming for wing mirrors, minor scrapes etc, but as I said, this could've happened anywhere. I haven't suddenly turned into an accident magnet!
Anyway, it still pisses me off, and come my next renewal, I'll be doing quotes with and without the incident and going with the guys who don't load my premium due to some other inept t
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