Beware ! Traffic Police and civil parking matters

Beware ! Traffic Police and civil parking matters

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Discussion

TankRizzo

7,247 posts

192 months

Friday 18th April 2014
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Snowboy said:
I don't know how much an anpr machine costs but I can't imagine it's more than a few hundred £.
It's just a camera and a computer.

Then it's just a case of loading the reg numbers with warrants against them and cruising round big car parks.

But, it must be worth the effort to be profitable.
Things Snowboy Is An Expert On #138: the workings of an ANPR system.

Terminator X

14,922 posts

203 months

Friday 18th April 2014
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Can someone in the know pls confirm what "data" is stored against our reg nrs? Insurance, VED and MOT presumably + debts as per this thread; anything else?

TX.

Mojooo

12,670 posts

179 months

Friday 18th April 2014
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isnt it more likely that they used the Police ANPR and just loaded their data onto it?

i doubt the Police database holds parking debt info by default.

Snowboy

8,028 posts

150 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
TankRizzo said:
Snowboy said:
I don't know how much an anpr machine costs but I can't imagine it's more than a few hundred £.
It's just a camera and a computer.

Then it's just a case of loading the reg numbers with warrants against them and cruising round big car parks.

But, it must be worth the effort to be profitable.
Things Snowboy Is An Expert On #138: the workings of an ANPR system.
I don't think one needs to be an expert to recognise what basic technology is needed to make one or to Google the cost of them.
smile

What surprises me is that it's worth the balifs time to cruise around hoping they find a car with an outstanding fine.
I'm amazed there are that many people owing money.
I'd guess they'd need to find a couple of cars a day to make it worthwhile, and with several balifs doing it.
That's a lot of people with debt.

FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Friday 18th April 2014
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Don't forget they are looking back at debts since 2009.

Variomatic

2,392 posts

160 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
Snowboy said:
I don't think one needs to be an expert to recognise what basic technology is needed to make one or to Google the cost of them.
smile

What surprises me is that it's worth the balifs time to cruise around hoping they find a car with an outstanding fine.
I'm amazed there are that many people owing money.
I'd guess they'd need to find a couple of cars a day to make it worthwhile, and with several balifs doing it.
That's a lot of people with debt.
Quick googling says that open source ANPR software is available for free. So, cheap laptop, half decent webcam and some free software, you're good to go. That's less than their fees on one car!

Cynically, and with no evidence whatsoever to back the thought up, if I was the enforcement company and the Police were playing along so willingly, this is the first step I'd take apart from maybe the first letter so I could say they'd been notified. Why bother with chasing up at peoples' homes if yu can sit on a main commuting road, have them all pulled in one place, then scare them into paying immediately?

As I say, I have nothing to back up that suggestion, but it would explain why an ANPR approach would make sense to them!

jbsportstech

5,069 posts

178 months

Friday 18th April 2014
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My other issue with bailiffs acting in this manor is when they rock up to your address and tell you, you owe 400-500 for £60 fixed penalty they can justify a proportion of this cost as a visit fee.

In these cases they are shouting fish in thee anpr barrel how can they claim £440 fees when you happen to drive past them, what is there justification it's stop and hassle fee?

As someone said I can't see how they have the power to detain you, I would ask the police present for contact details for their inspector so he/she can explain what the hell they think their doing.

FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
Variomatic said:
Quick googling says that open source ANPR software is available for free. So, cheap laptop, half decent webcam and some free software, you're good to go. That's less than their fees on one car!

Cynically, and with no evidence whatsoever to back the thought up, if I was the enforcement company and the Police were playing along so willingly, this is the first step I'd take apart from maybe the first letter so I could say they'd been notified. Why bother with chasing up at peoples' homes if yu can sit on a main commuting road, have them all pulled in one place, then scare them into paying immediately?

As I say, I have nothing to back up that suggestion, but it would explain why an ANPR approach would make sense to them!
Looking at the way they had them lined up at one point productivity will have improved.

Snowboy

8,028 posts

150 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
How long does a stop last for?
A six hour shift perhaps.

I'm totally stunned that even at a busy junction in London there are significant number of debt-tagged-cars passing in that time to make it worthwhile.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think most people object to balifs in general rather than the idea of police assisting a civil court.
If a civil court had decided a person was entitled to a hefty cash sum for some reason I doubt anyone would object to the police assisting in finding that person so they could be given the money.

FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
I think you'll find that quite a number of people including myself have said they have no objection to bailiffs or debt recovery per se providing it's performed according to the rules.

As far as balifs (sic) are concerned I have no idea what they are.

As for the police involvement it showed several police officers stood there listening while a bailiff repeatedly threatened to take actions that she had no legal powers to take.

But then it's the Met. rolleyes

Variomatic

2,392 posts

160 months

Friday 18th April 2014
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Snowboy said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think most people object to balifs in general rather than the idea of police assisting a civil court.
If a civil court had decided a person was entitled to a hefty cash sum for some reason I doubt anyone would object to the police assisting in finding that person so they could be given the money.
I can't answer for "most people" but I can for myself.

I have nothing against bailiffs. They're a necessary evil at times. I would also have nothing against the police assisting if the law made specific provision for them to do so.

But the law does NOT make that provision and I would rather that all debtors got clean away than have any form of authority (whether balifs, the police, councils or whoever) step beyond the powers they've been granted.

If more powers are needed to deal with unpaid debts then it's up to Parliament to authorise them, not for the police to misuse ones they've been granted for other reasons.

Snowboy

8,028 posts

150 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
FiF said:
I think you'll find that quite a number of people including myself have said they have no objection to bailiffs or debt recovery per se providing it's performed according to the rules.

As far as balifs (sic) are concerned I have no idea what they are.

As for the police involvement it showed several upolice officers stood there listening while a bailiff repeatedly threatened to take actions that she had no legal powers to take.

But then it's the Met. rolleyes
That second part would bother me. That seems moraly wrong.

But, police assisting bailiff's when it is all done according to the rules wouldn't bother me.

Notwithstanding I think some of the rules should be changed. smile

Oilchange

8,422 posts

259 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
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Are the rules that allow an officer to assist a bailiff based around said bailiff having a court order?

9mm

3,128 posts

209 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
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Ian Geary said:
vonhosen said:
I don't believe the Police will just be stopping the vehicle for the bailiff.
I've seen Vonhosen called a few things over the years, but naive will be a new one to me.


Still, lets not forget that the justice system - and our wider economy - does require that when people incur a debt, they pay it.

Parking tickets going to the wrong address etc. are easily avoidable, as its a requirement to update your address with the DVLA when you move, and there's a well trodden path to contest dubious tickets. I would expect most adults to have sufficient grasp of their lives that they know if a public body is trying to collect money from them.

So whilst the actions of the Met do rankle in this instance, I expect that for 99% of people it's their own fault they're in that situation in the first place.


Ian
That might be OK if the Police were prepared to assist everyone with a civil debt. As was stated much earlier in the thread, we know what response most of us get if we asked for assistance.

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
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Oilchange said:
Are the rules that allow an officer to assist a bailiff based around said bailiff having a court order?
What rules?

On occasions where there is risk of a breach of the peace, the Police may attend in order to try and prevent it. That is not a bailiff specific circumstance.

As for stopping vehicles in behalf of bailiffs, again, no such rules or laws to allow it.

Snowboy

8,028 posts

150 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
quotequote all
Oilchange said:
Are the rules that allow an officer to assist a bailiff based around said bailiff having a court order?
That's where it gets interesting.
There are no rules/laws explicitly allowing or forbidding police from assisting bailiffs in terms of stopping cars.


The bailiffs in question though will have a court order.
I think it's a county court judgement (ccj), but there may be other types too.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
quotequote all
Snowboy said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think most people object to balifs in general rather than the idea of police assisting a civil court.
If a civil court had decided a person was entitled to a hefty cash sum for some reason I doubt anyone would object to the police assisting in finding that person so they could be given the money.
bks. Both of those claims are completely untrue, and you know it. Plenty of posters in this thread have stated and explained to you their objections.

jbsportstech

5,069 posts

178 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
quotequote all
10 Pence Short said:
What rules?

On occasions where there is risk of a breach of the peace, the Police may attend in order to try and prevent it. That is not a bailiff specific circumstance.

As for stopping vehicles in behalf of bailiffs, again, no such rules or laws to allow it.
Please are not to assist bailiffs in the removal of goods, they are there to prevent a breach of the peace.

Would be nice if rather than let that rather unpleasant arrogant woman hold the mans van for that long if they stepped in and said you cannot sieze the van as it's not reg to person on the ticket plus it's a work van so a tool of trade trade so on titis occasion I feel he cannot be detained any longer as we have no grounds to hold him and nor do you.

Honestly I have yet yo meet a bailiff who didn't act as if they had more power than they do, it's all threats and tripe.

Snowboy

8,028 posts

150 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
quotequote all
Greg66 said:
Snowboy said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think most people object to balifs in general rather than the idea of police assisting a civil court.
If a civil court had decided a person was entitled to a hefty cash sum for some reason I doubt anyone would object to the police assisting in finding that person so they could be given the money.
bks. Both of those claims are completely untrue, and you know it. Plenty of posters in this thread have stated and explained to you their objections.
I was talking about the public in general rather than just the small number of posters on this thread. smile

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
quotequote all
Snowboy said:
Greg66 said:
Snowboy said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think most people object to balifs in general rather than the idea of police assisting a civil court.
If a civil court had decided a person was entitled to a hefty cash sum for some reason I doubt anyone would object to the police assisting in finding that person so they could be given the money.
bks. Both of those claims are completely untrue, and you know it. Plenty of posters in this thread have stated and explained to you their objections.
I was talking about the public in general rather than just the small number of posters on this thread. smile
Again, bks.

You twice said "anyone". That's clear and unambiguous.

I'd say you view is the minority one in this thread. Why your think it would be the majority view in the real world is a mystery.