Ticket from Police only on word of (an)other motorist(s)....

Ticket from Police only on word of (an)other motorist(s)....

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Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
....in New Zealand. Annoying as it's my first ever one (bar thinly disguised roadside extortion in ex USSR Republics) in 15 years of driving.

SHORT STORY giving as best I can an objective description:

Motorist dialled a Police hotline (555) to report me as an allegedly driving badly/dangerously in a general manner. Police pull me over 15 mins later to ask me about my driving. Another motorist stops 2 mins later as well having seen me stopped and alleges a specific instance of overtaking when not legal to do so. I also give my side of the story contravening that needless to say. 10 mins later I get ticket for unsafe overtaking based on the alleged instance described by the second driver. No Police officers witnessed any of the driving involved.

Question 1: In NZ, is it legal for a traffic officer to issue a ticket based on second hand "civvy" information?
Question 2 (for the BiB here, mainly out of curiosity of UK law): based on the above scenario would a UK police officer be able to issue a ticket based on second hand "civvy" info? i.e. not seeing it themselves and it wasn't seen by another officer?

FULL STORY:

So, it turns out NZ drivers reeeeally don't like being overtaken, especially in a Hyundai stebox. We've actually noticed that the general standard of road awareness appears to be somewhat different to the UK, but that's another thread.

Driving along and nutter driver objects to being passed at the end of the passing lane - admittedly, in hindsight I would not have passed him as it was quite tight at the end, in the UK I would have expected to be beeped at and had a policeman seen it I would have expected to be pulled over and scolded for bad judgement - nutter proceeds to illuminate full beams to blind me and drive 2 foot off our rear bumper for about 10km....in line of traffic....at 50mph....on a wet mountain road....with only one hand on the wheel as he's busy shaking his fist and gesturing to pull over with the other. I have to slow down and put a bigger gap between me and the car in front in order to prevent nutter from running into me should front car brake hard. Apparently nutter calls the police when he stops in his town saying I've been driving dangerously or similar.

Next driver (which we actually encountered initially 15km before the above and watched tailgate another SUV down a hill and overtake at 30km/h+ over the speed limit into a corner) seems to have objected to us keeping up with his shiny new V8 SUV on the windy roads after his previously mentioned overtake, although to be fair that is speculation. He lets us past then proceeds to follow us dropping back a little. 20 mins later to put distance between us and nutter mentioned initially (this is the only instance I can think of that he may possibly be referring to when he speaks to police officer after as it was our only other overtake), we overtake a car and campervan in front (no cutting of yellow lines etc, def legal).

Policeman 1 stops us about 10 mins later and about 3 mins later policeman 2 arrives. We give our story to policeman 1 including SUV man's "interesting" overtake and nutter's tailgating etc. Irate SUV man gives his to policeman 1 and 2 a couple of mins later when he stops after seeing us stopped. Police officer 2 almost giggling at him for whatever reason. After which, Policeman 1 drives off saying policeman 2 will deal with us. I'm thinking we're about to get a scolding at worst imagining police probably think its a minor barney between drivers. Instead, we get issued a ticket for $150 from policeman 2 for "unsafe passing" based purely on SUV driver's word for his at best exaggerated, at worst lie, of a story concerning our overtake of the campervan. Other drivers get zilch. All this despite quotes from the police officers saying, maybe not word for word, but almost literally: "good you didn't stop as there would have been trouble" (referring to angry nutter driver tailgating us waving at us to pull over) and "we're issuing a ticket to keep the peace so it doesn't create road rage in the town"....

It all seems a bit bizarre to me to say the least. Luckily it's only £75 or so based on the exchange rate, but I'm more annoyed at the principle of it than anything else, bit of a downer to our holiday frown And it kinda worries me that if I wanted to get someone stopped and fined with demerit points taken from their licence here (a bit like our points system), it would only take my word against them apparently.


caziques

2,567 posts

167 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
What you do depends on various circumstances.

The police have to send a Reminder Notice about the alleged offence after 28 days. If this means you will have left NZ by this time then it can simply be ignored.

If you are in NZ permanently then you have 28 days to reply to the Reminder Notice (ie about 60 days from now) - at this point you "request a hearing".

If the Police decide to prosecute you will be given a time and date for the hearing at the nearest court to the alleged offence.

You can then plead not guilty at the first hearing - which forces the police to disclose all the evidence - which is also when the fun starts - as they have to prepare witness statements for all the persons concerned. More than likely - if it ever got to this stage - this matter would be dropped a few days before the main event - make life too hard for the police and they give up.

I've had three speeding cases, theft of a wheel clamp and a summons for failing to identify the driver all dropped at the last minute. In a couple of other cases I've been involved in it is clear the Police will not proceed unless they are certain of a win.

Hence in your case I would almost guarantee it would be dropped if it came to it. In any case the only extra costs are court costs of about 80 pounds in total.

The police are very quick in NZ to hand out tickets, and are nearly as quick to drop matters if things look too difficult.

Have a good holiday - don't spend all your time looking for bad driving in NZ.

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Two witnesses to questionable overtakes, you're FUBAR.

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
WinstonWolf said:
Two witnesses to questionable overtakes, you're FUBAR.
If this was some sort of trial and they we're telling the truth, then I'd be inclined to agree. however my issue is that a ticket was issued to me at the road on just hearsay. In the first instance I'd like to determine whether that is actually legal or not in NZ.

calibrax

4,788 posts

210 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Mario149 said:
If this was some sort of trial and they we're telling the truth, then I'd be inclined to agree. however my issue is that a ticket was issued to me at the road on just hearsay. In the first instance I'd like to determine whether that is actually legal or not in NZ.
Surely you have a choice to accept the ticket or go to court? With two separate witnesses, logic says to take the ticket. I'd say the coppers have done you a favour.

V8forweekends

2,481 posts

123 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
When I was on hols in NZ I noticed a few things are different so I adjusted my driving style a bit so as to fit in.

I tend to take the view that however odd it may seem, it's best not to stand out in foreign countries.

You've admitted to one questionable overtake, but you're miffed to have been ticketed on the one that was OK....

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
calibrax said:
Surely you have a choice to accept the ticket or go to court? With two separate witnesses, logic says to take the ticket. I'd say the coppers have done you a favour.
My understanding having spoken to the policeman issuing the ticket was that I had to take the ticket but could contest t in court.

But that is by the by as I'm leaving in a week and am not going to hang around for a court date for the sake of £75.

My question on the legality of issuing a ticket for a specific infraction based on what a random individual Joe Bloggs said when he pulled up to chat, still stands....and if not legal, whether I can get it rescinded without going to court on the basis that tickets cannot be issued in those circumstances to start with.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Mario149 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Two witnesses to questionable overtakes, you're FUBAR.
If this was some sort of trial and they we're telling the truth, then I'd be inclined to agree. however my issue is that a ticket was issued to me at the road on just hearsay. In the first instance I'd like to determine whether that is actually legal or not in NZ.
it's not hearsay , the police have reports from two independent witnesses.

plese return when you understand what hearsay is .

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
V8forweekends said:
When I was on hols in NZ I noticed a few things are different so I adjusted my driving style a bit so as to fit in.

I tend to take the view that however odd it may seem, it's best not to stand out in foreign countries.

You've admitted to one questionable overtake, but you're miffed to have been ticketed on the one that was OK....
Totally agree about standing out in foreign countries. Tbf, we've done 4.5k miles trouble free here so maybe I've just been unlucky.

Yup, will hold my hands up to the overtake, like I said if I could do it again I wouldn't. But that said, while not my finest hour on the road representing Britain, in the UK it would have resulted in a toot of the horn given when someone merges badly rather than 10km of frankly terrifying tailgating.

As for which overtake I was ticketed for, that's exactly my point, in theory it could have been completely legal and safe (and actually was) yet 1 individual can effectively spin a yarn to a Policeman resulting in someone being several $ lighter for having done nothing.

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
it's not hearsay , the police have reports from two independent witnesses.

plese return when you understand what hearsay is .
Thanks. Here:

noun
1.
information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour

Only one witness (SUV man) alleged the specific illegal overtake, tailgate man made a general complaint (having completed the most dangerous piece of extended driving I think I might have ever seen which would be funny if it wasn't horrific). 2 separate issues therefore unsubstantiated. If I rang the local police and complained you were driving badly, then 15 mins later you ran a light that had just turned red (but actually hadn't), a different member of the public saw it and rang the police (but Joe Public either lies or makes a genuine mistake) again but there was no other corroboration, police then stopped you 5 mins later 5 miles away and fined you and gave you 3 points for something they didn't even see, would you accept that as fair? I'm guessing probably not. Whether it's legal or not do do so (in NZ and in the UK) is also another interesting question


USABRZ

70 posts

126 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
I'm just glad in the US we don't have people calling the cops on each other for driving issues. It seems crazy to me for police to issue tickets based on another driver's reports. People have such different driving standards and road rage is so common, I don't know how drivers can be believed to be reliable witnesses.

Corpulent Tosser

5,459 posts

244 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
it's not hearsay , the police have reports from two independent witnesses.

plese return when you understand what hearsay is .
confused If it is not hearsay then what is it, how would it be better described ?

I know I would be pissed off to be given a ticket on the expressed opinion of another driver.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Corpulent Tosser said:
mph1977 said:
it's not hearsay , the police have reports from two independent witnesses.

plese return when you understand what hearsay is .
confused If it is not hearsay then what is it, how would it be better described ?

I know I would be pissed off to be given a ticket on the expressed opinion of another driver.
A direct report from the person(s) who witnessed something is not hearsay.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/hearsay/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay_in_English_la...

Corpulent Tosser

5,459 posts

244 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
mph1977 said:
it's not hearsay , the police have reports from two independent witnesses.

plese return when you understand what hearsay is .
confused If it is not hearsay then what is it, how would it be better described ?

I know I would be pissed off to be given a ticket on the expressed opinion of another driver.
A direct report from the person(s) who witnessed something is not hearsay.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/hearsay/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay_in_English_la...
These definitions are though when in connection with criminal/court procedings, in this case the dictionary definition is equally valid surely.

hear·say (hîr′sā′)
n.
1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.

The police officer received information from another, that information was not verified. - hearsay !

swisstoni

16,855 posts

278 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Shame you had the £75 on you really.

ferrariF50lover

1,834 posts

225 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Not directly relevant, but if I called the police every time I saw some 7/10 driving (which I think is about right for a mildly ropey overtake) and had the police called on me every time I went past a dawdler who thinks that the NSL is 37mph and that overtaking is illegal, I reckon I'd have been dealing with the police in one capacity or another for the entirety of my adult life.

I've done about 40 miles today and I reckon I'd have called them at least a dozen times (including on the XC90 who decided to park himself next to me on a dual carriageway, then get irate when I indicated to pull out round the fast approaching lorry, then decided to play the ultimate moron card and jump on the brakes, at 70, in the pissing wet).

I think this sort of thing flies in the face of a number of the proper principles of the application of the law. We can't have a system where anyone can simply report something which may or may not have happened, then have their word taken as gospel and a punishment issued. This is the problem with victimless crimes, unless some concrete evidence appears, there's no real evidence of any crime, let alone whodunnit. Time to stop flogging this dead (if profitable) horse, I think.

Simon.

Bill

52,485 posts

254 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Are you likely to return to NZ?? wink

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
V8forweekends said:
When I was on hols in NZ I noticed a few things are different so I adjusted my driving style a bit so as to fit in.

I tend to take the view that however odd it may seem, it's best not to stand out in foreign countries.
That may be easier in Italy.

But then I noticed that the OP is called Mario.

I think I'll stop wondering if the OP was this chap, as it's probably not:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/richard-bruns...

Variomatic

2,392 posts

160 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
It's different to what happens here, but I can't really see a problem with it as long as you have the choice to defend it.

Driving dangerously is a criminal offence and plenty of criminal offences can be brought to trial without a policeman seeing you do it. Should shoplifters be left to carry on becaue it was only a shopkeeper who saw them? Or a murderer who'#s smart enough to wait util there are no police around?

Just because the UK may treat driving offences differently from most other offences in terms of what evidence is acceptable doesn't mean we should expect other countries to do the same.

When in Rome...

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
555?

It should be the law that all Police cars in NZ are blue with gold graphics.