Getting deposit back from Dealer
Discussion
rehab71 said:
Ultimately you reneged on the deal, you should forfeit your deposit.
If the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure you'd be pissed off and want to retain the dipper.
To be fair to the OP, and to the garage, he put down a deposit on a car that the dealer then reneged on as well.If the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure you'd be pissed off and want to retain the dipper.
I think the dealer's moral (and somewhat legal position) is somewhat eroded by the fact they they can hardly chime on about binding contracts and compensating the other party when they reneged on the first sale without compensating the buyer.
JustinP1 said:
rehab71 said:
Ultimately you reneged on the deal, you should forfeit your deposit.
If the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure you'd be pissed off and want to retain the dipper.
To be fair to the OP, and to the garage, he put down a deposit on a car that the dealer then reneged on as well.If the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure you'd be pissed off and want to retain the dipper.
I think the dealer's moral (and somewhat legal position) is somewhat eroded by the fact they they can hardly chime on about binding contracts and compensating the other party when they reneged on the first sale without compensating the buyer.
A few things strike me as odd, and make me wonder if there's more to this.
£2k is quite a big "deposit".
It's unusual for a dealer to take a deposit on a car that can then 'slip away'.
On the replacement car it's very odd for delivery to take 2 weeks within a dealer group.
Is is a particularly unusual or specialist car that might have been difficult to source, or difficult to sell on to other customers?
£2k is quite a big "deposit".
It's unusual for a dealer to take a deposit on a car that can then 'slip away'.
On the replacement car it's very odd for delivery to take 2 weeks within a dealer group.
Is is a particularly unusual or specialist car that might have been difficult to source, or difficult to sell on to other customers?
Snowboy said:
A few things strike me as odd, and make me wonder if there's more to this.
£2k is quite a big "deposit".
It's unusual for a dealer to take a deposit on a car that can then 'slip away'.
On the replacement car it's very odd for delivery to take 2 weeks within a dealer group.
Is is a particularly unusual or specialist car that might have been difficult to source, or difficult to sell on to other customers?
None of this is unusual. £2k is quite a big "deposit".
It's unusual for a dealer to take a deposit on a car that can then 'slip away'.
On the replacement car it's very odd for delivery to take 2 weeks within a dealer group.
Is is a particularly unusual or specialist car that might have been difficult to source, or difficult to sell on to other customers?
£2k isn't a large deposit on a £50k car.
If there is more than one branch it is very easy for another branch to sell a car without the other branch knowing immediately, particularly if it is a busy day; it may have not been called off the system "I'll do that later when I've for a free moment as I need to speak to those people over there".
The replacement may be within the dealer group stock however it may still be at the docks or it may be imminently due at the docs and may not actually be in the country yet.
Fair enough.
From what the OP said I'd assumed it was a used car, so the idea of the car being shipped hadn't occurred to me.
If it's a new car it's a bit different.
I'm going to take another guess and say the deposit contract is different between new and used cars.
On a used car it's just a case of driving the car to the dealers adding a hundred miles on the clock.
On a new car then adding 100 miles is a big deal, so it'll need to be trailered, then there's the question of the first registration date.
There's going to be more costs and potential loss in buying a new car vs getting a used car delivered to the local dealers.
From what the OP said I'd assumed it was a used car, so the idea of the car being shipped hadn't occurred to me.
If it's a new car it's a bit different.
I'm going to take another guess and say the deposit contract is different between new and used cars.
On a used car it's just a case of driving the car to the dealers adding a hundred miles on the clock.
On a new car then adding 100 miles is a big deal, so it'll need to be trailered, then there's the question of the first registration date.
There's going to be more costs and potential loss in buying a new car vs getting a used car delivered to the local dealers.
HTP99 said:
JustinP1 said:
rehab71 said:
Ultimately you reneged on the deal, you should forfeit your deposit.
If the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure you'd be pissed off and want to retain the dipper.
To be fair to the OP, and to the garage, he put down a deposit on a car that the dealer then reneged on as well.If the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure you'd be pissed off and want to retain the dipper.
I think the dealer's moral (and somewhat legal position) is somewhat eroded by the fact they they can hardly chime on about binding contracts and compensating the other party when they reneged on the first sale without compensating the buyer.
Now the shoe is on the other foot, their attitude on how flexible the relationship is has changed...!
Snowboy said:
There's going to be more costs and potential loss in buying a new car vs getting a used car delivered to the local dealers.
On the flip side, there's more chance of selling it to someone else at the same price the OP was paying for it.The endgame of this is:
The OP has told the dealer that he wants to breach the contract.
The dealer is duty bound by contract law to mitigate the losses he has faced.
If the OP doesn't come to buy the car and sticks to his guns, the dealer is duty bound to try to sell it to someone else. He will be stupid if he does not, as if nothing else it will ruin his case for losses for breach of contract.
If the dealer sells the car to someone else at the same price with no or minimal advertisement cost then the OP will be entitled to all or almost all of his deposit back.
JustinP1 said:
On the flip side, there's more chance of selling it to someone else at the same price the OP was paying for it.
They might not be able to, it's a company car so fleet terms apply and they're bigger than the retail terms. If it's not registered to a fleet customer then the support will be less.Also, if he's signed the finance docs then he's screwed if it's a lease as they're uncancelable agreements...
JustinP1 said:
Oh yes, I know that. My point is, the dealer asked and expected the OP to simply forget they had an agreement to buy a car because it suited him.
Now the shoe is on the other foot, their attitude on how flexible the relationship is has changed...!
Exactly.Now the shoe is on the other foot, their attitude on how flexible the relationship is has changed...!
Unfair contract terms, anyone? Not that the OP has apparently seen any T's & C's, so good luck to the dealer in attempting to apply them retrospectively.
I think the first car being lost is a bit if of a red herring.
It sets the scene, but doesn't change the second part if the story.
The first car contract was void.
The OP accepted the new car.
Forms were signed, money changed hands.
The OP has made a commitment.
The OP has also said he's happy to lose a bit of the deposit if there's cost to the dealer - that's a sensible attitude.
But wants his money now, just 7 days after cancelling.
I would guess that the dealer hasn't had chance to sell the car or work out if they can refund the deposit.
We've just had a double bank holiday and cars like this don't always sell quickly.
I'd suggest you give it another week and see how things move on.
In terms of it being an unfair contracts.
Maybe you could argue a moral case, but not a legal one.
It sets the scene, but doesn't change the second part if the story.
The first car contract was void.
The OP accepted the new car.
Forms were signed, money changed hands.
The OP has made a commitment.
The OP has also said he's happy to lose a bit of the deposit if there's cost to the dealer - that's a sensible attitude.
But wants his money now, just 7 days after cancelling.
I would guess that the dealer hasn't had chance to sell the car or work out if they can refund the deposit.
We've just had a double bank holiday and cars like this don't always sell quickly.
I'd suggest you give it another week and see how things move on.
In terms of it being an unfair contracts.
Maybe you could argue a moral case, but not a legal one.
NPI said:
Exactly.
Unfair contract terms, anyone? Not that the OP has apparently seen any T's & C's, so good luck to the dealer in attempting to apply them retrospectively.
Did the OP sign the back of a fag packet then? I would assume he's signed a proper order form which should have terms and conditions on. If he's not signed anything at all, then why hand over a deposit? And if he has paid a deposit without an order form then a) that's very silly and b) he should speak to his card company and ask them to get the money back.Unfair contract terms, anyone? Not that the OP has apparently seen any T's & C's, so good luck to the dealer in attempting to apply them retrospectively.
Although as usual we've only got part of the story...
Snowboy said:
In terms of it being an unfair contracts.
Maybe you could argue a moral case, but not a legal one.
As I know you are a keen student of such laws, have a read of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.Maybe you could argue a moral case, but not a legal one.
They focus on terms that are supplied 'as standard' to consumers, and one area is 'fairness' and looking at contracts that create an imbalance against the consumer.
How it has been construed in case law, giving one example is that it has seen to be unfair for a gym to give the client one month's notice of cancellation of services, but the client has to give six months. In that case, and as the Regs state, the term is modified to the opposing term to the other party.
The other argument I would consider is that contracts are not totally about what is on a piece of paper, but about the custom of the dealings.
My argument would be that the actions of the dealer in the first instance in reneging on the deal after a deposit has been placed in such an informal way meant that the consumer could infer that placing such a deposit was not binding on either party, or that such a contract could be rescinded should a party request.
Firstly I apologise for not giving all the information being questioned...I am not trying to hide anything, but probably do not know much about the legal side of things compared to some of you so have only said what I thought was relevant.
The car was to be purchased as a company car with a suitable finance deal, but I chose to pay the initial securing deposit after two cars had slipped away, it was a Saturday so I could not get my colleague to make the payment by BACs and my colleague was on holiday after the weekend for a few days, plus my company credit card did not have enough credit...and even the car that I paid the deposit against also failed to materialise.
The order form I signed did have terms and conditions on the back but as yet I have not been able to get hold of these.
I have just received a letter from the dealer basically asking if there is anything they can do to retrieve the situation...and no there is not.
They then go on to say that under their terms "Forfieture of deposit" which deals with failure to take and pay for goods within 7 days of being informed that the vehicle is ready for collection, and that I have breached these terms...
There appear to be two issues here, one is that I have not signed any terms relating to the particular vehicle, although from one of your comments, clearly I have intended to order a vehicle and I accepted the actual vehicle specification etc. I cannot remember right now whether this was by e-mail aswell as verbally, so maybe the contract has been carried over to the new vehicle because of the intent?
The second problem is that I informed them (by e-mail) that I had changed my mind the day before the vehicle arrived at their depot, and they absolutely had not informed me it was ready for collection. The vehicle had infact turned up a week or so earlier than they had previously said, so I thought I was giving them reasonable notice.
Oh yes, the car in question was a Boxster S...a beautifully put together car and a great all rounder, but after a week or so of cooling down (after paying the deposit), it occurred to me that I was in no way excited about the arrival of the car which just did not feel right...this was after all a car of my choice. I subsequently saw, drove, and bought an Exige S Roadster...it`s as rough as rats from the refinement point of view, but in carbon grey it is a stunning thing and a complete rush whenever you drive it. I think a Boxster will suit me better when I start drawing a pension!
Much of this still comes down to me confirming the terms and conditions, but I get the impression they are going to play hardball about the deposit...i.e. wanting to keep it all (as said before, I do not mind them keeping a reasonable amount). I had already half resigned myself to this being the result but at the same time I have played it pretty fair. One thing is for certain, I will not be buying a car from them in the future if they do not play the game more reasonably.
The car was to be purchased as a company car with a suitable finance deal, but I chose to pay the initial securing deposit after two cars had slipped away, it was a Saturday so I could not get my colleague to make the payment by BACs and my colleague was on holiday after the weekend for a few days, plus my company credit card did not have enough credit...and even the car that I paid the deposit against also failed to materialise.
The order form I signed did have terms and conditions on the back but as yet I have not been able to get hold of these.
I have just received a letter from the dealer basically asking if there is anything they can do to retrieve the situation...and no there is not.
They then go on to say that under their terms "Forfieture of deposit" which deals with failure to take and pay for goods within 7 days of being informed that the vehicle is ready for collection, and that I have breached these terms...
There appear to be two issues here, one is that I have not signed any terms relating to the particular vehicle, although from one of your comments, clearly I have intended to order a vehicle and I accepted the actual vehicle specification etc. I cannot remember right now whether this was by e-mail aswell as verbally, so maybe the contract has been carried over to the new vehicle because of the intent?
The second problem is that I informed them (by e-mail) that I had changed my mind the day before the vehicle arrived at their depot, and they absolutely had not informed me it was ready for collection. The vehicle had infact turned up a week or so earlier than they had previously said, so I thought I was giving them reasonable notice.
Oh yes, the car in question was a Boxster S...a beautifully put together car and a great all rounder, but after a week or so of cooling down (after paying the deposit), it occurred to me that I was in no way excited about the arrival of the car which just did not feel right...this was after all a car of my choice. I subsequently saw, drove, and bought an Exige S Roadster...it`s as rough as rats from the refinement point of view, but in carbon grey it is a stunning thing and a complete rush whenever you drive it. I think a Boxster will suit me better when I start drawing a pension!
Much of this still comes down to me confirming the terms and conditions, but I get the impression they are going to play hardball about the deposit...i.e. wanting to keep it all (as said before, I do not mind them keeping a reasonable amount). I had already half resigned myself to this being the result but at the same time I have played it pretty fair. One thing is for certain, I will not be buying a car from them in the future if they do not play the game more reasonably.
CTE said:
New stuff.
Morals out of it - if I was your lawyer, I would be advising the following angles.If you want to be pushy, contracts are only worth the paper they are written on. Playing the endgame, there's a few angles here, which only are here as they stuffed you the first time:
1) They rescinded the first contract without penalty. It could be argued that it was your understanding that for future contracts that they, or indeed you would have the same facility.
2) There's no paperwork for the second car. If hypothetically, in light of your disappointment in being let down from the first car, you agreed to decide upon another purchase when it arrived, and let them hold your deposit pending this, then the situation changes.
3) You could well argue that there was no formal agreement to purchase the second vehicle. As they demonstrated, to purchase a vehicle, they expect you to sign a formal purchase order. They didn't bother the second time, indicating that the contract would be formed when the car was physically with them, and you accept it when you come to the showroom.
An interesting tactic to consider if things get nasty (and this is subject to the written communications not opposing this) would be to claim your losses from the first contract, and your deposit back.
That claim is very much less straightforward for them to defend. They have to argue the informality of the contract allowing them to renege upon it, yet also arguing that it is formal enough that when the shoe's on the other foot for the second car that they can keep your deposit. There's also the UTCCR angle I mentioned above, where clearly the contract suggests that the dealer can rescind a deal if they wish, but for the consumer to do it it costs him £2000. Finally of course, they have to go to court to formally argue the purchase of a £50,000 car without a written purchase order.
It'd be a mess for them, and cost them a four figure sum just to get a solicitor to defend it, and the same again to go to trial. As a small claim, they'd be picking up these costs win or lose.
An update and conclusion;
Upon checking the terms of the contract that was signed agianst the car for which the deposit was paid, the terms were 14 days from the dealer notifying the customer that the car is ready for collection, the customer must pay in full. If not the dealer must refund the deposit, and then claim back any expences.
The dealer was reminded of these terms, and ultimately agreed by them, so I have paid very reasonable expences, and got the balance of my deposit back. A fair and sensible outcome.
Thanks for your contributions.
Upon checking the terms of the contract that was signed agianst the car for which the deposit was paid, the terms were 14 days from the dealer notifying the customer that the car is ready for collection, the customer must pay in full. If not the dealer must refund the deposit, and then claim back any expences.
The dealer was reminded of these terms, and ultimately agreed by them, so I have paid very reasonable expences, and got the balance of my deposit back. A fair and sensible outcome.
Thanks for your contributions.
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