HADECS 3 cameras on the M25

[hman]

ah well maybe I have a hope!

[Davidonly]

I suspect that the consensus will be that the Great British public that use the motorways (which we paid for) do NOT want these cameras working all the time and once again the ridiculous 70mph limit will be questioned if they are used to enforce NSL.

It is amazing that we have put up with all this st for so long really but there always comes a time.....

[mybrainhurts]

Randomthoughts said:

There's one or more on the M1 now.

Where? One prepares oneself to say oh st...

[havoc]

hman said:

ah well maybe I have a hope!

Keep your fingers crossed. Someone I know went through the Clacketts Lane stretch at a fair whack, and only realised the cameras were there when the opposite carriageway flashed repeatedly at the second gantry. That was about 4 weeks ago...

[Blakewater]

Davidonly said:

I suspect that the consensus will be that the Great British public that use the motorways (which we paid for) do NOT want these cameras working all the time and once again the ridiculous 70mph limit will be questioned if they are used to enforce NSL.

It is amazing that we have put up with all this st for so long really but there always comes a time.....

The vast majority of people aren't going to know anything about these cameras until fines start hitting doormats. The problem is people have come to accept them gradually. We started off with a few in what we were promised were accident blackspots, then a load more appeared all over the place. Then speed limits were lowered to below speeds most people feel are suitable for the roads they're on, and are capable of driving at safely, and even more cameras were introduced including average speed ones. We've always been told no cameras will enforce the NSL on motorways and now we're getting them on certain stretches with more to come.

Plenty of people are militant about rules being rules and how they must be obeyed and enforced and people who break them must be punished. They don't like to stop and question whether the rules actually benefit society and if they're the best way of achieving what they're meant to.

[mybrainhurts]

Blakewater said:

Plenty of people are militant about rules being rules and how they must be obeyed and enforced and people who break them must be punished. They don't like to stop and question whether the rules actually benefit society and if they're the best way of achieving what they're meant to.

Any several of these dullards reside in PH. Truly baffling.

[EmmaJ]

Used that section last night both ways and each time EVERYBODY was doing 75 or less and outside lane (lane 5?) was empty as there wasn't anybody trying to make progress.

It would appear the sheep have learnt the fence in now electrified and are sticking to the new boundary

I Just pray that with the "success" they are having on that stretch it isn't rolled out across the entire network!

[Randomthoughts]

mybrainhurts said:

Where? One prepares oneself to say oh st...

Down around the Milton Keynes end of the managed moneymaking section of the motorway, Northbound is where I saw one. Wasn't looking for any more, saw the flash as I was coming the opposite direction which is why I spied it.

[Davidonly]

EmmaJ said:

Used that section last night both ways and each time EVERYBODY was doing 75 or less and outside lane (lane 5?) was empty as there wasn't anybody trying to make progress.

It would appear the sheep have learnt the fence in now electrified and are sticking to the new boundary

I Just pray that with the "success" they are having on that stretch it isn't rolled out across the entire network!

Speed limits cause bunching and tailgating of vehicles. I drive in Germany and this is evident every-time the de-restrictions end. Some 'green' parts of the country have the most stressed driving conditions as lane discipline also falls apart after a few miles (km) of artificial 120kph limit. Here in the UK the use of motorways is also generally poor due to our daft 70mph (lowest in EU) speed limit - but much there is EVEN WORSE discipline and spacing in scamera zones (worst of all in SPECS - here, everyone seems to be in a blind spot with two parallel nose-to-tail snakes rolling along just waiting for a trigger for the inevitable pile up). I would be amazed if enforcing 70mph on clear Motorways does NOT increase the rate of 'collisions' (aka accidents).

I don't use M-Ways here now except for business travel as the amount of monitoring makes them unpleasant and dangerous to use. Luckily there are still enough A and B roads that can be enjoyed in Wales, North Yorkshire and best of all The Highlands of Scotland.

I suspect my son will never actually enjoy driving however and that seems to be the main objective of all the state sanctioned bullying we witness.

However........ we really don't have to put up with it. IF enough people set of a scammer or drive past a civil servant (waste of space) in a van, then decided to go to court (NOT feed the SAC monster OR accept FPN) the system will be fked in days

[Carl_Docklands]

Switch said:

I got flashed going both ways between J23 and J25 on Thursday 1-3am
CW in the region of 75-80 indicated and then CCW at 70 (studiously observed).
Both NSL out of the roadworks...

They're going off like buggery up there currently, I think they're not calibrated well just yet!

One of the cameras on the anti-clockwise section near Sevenoaks looks like it was malfunctioning or incorrectly setup as it's going off constantly. I had a good look at it on friday going clockwise. In my experience motorway cameras are never set in the 70's, for obvious reasons.

For what it's worth I rarely used to hit traffic on this section of M25 (prior to the roadworks) and now its causing congestion as there appear to be speed cameras setup on every single gantry. I don't see why they have done this apart from for revenue generation, the problem areas on the M25 are before this section and after it.

If they are safety cameras, I would prefer to see the speed cameras clearly identified separately in yellow paint.

I spent around 4 hours on the M25 this week and the worst driving I saw was perpetrated by drivers in slow traffic yesterday afternoon.

FYI - The notorious camera in question on the anti-clockwise section appears to be painted in a dark colour mounted behind a gantry and not tacked on front of it.

Edited by Carl_Docklands on Saturday 14th June 11:13

[Blakewater]

Davidonly said:

Speed limits cause bunching and tailgating of vehicles. I drive in Germany and this is evident every-time the de-restrictions end. Some 'green' parts of the country have the most stressed driving conditions as lane discipline also falls apart after a few miles (km) of artificial 120kph limit. Here in the UK the use of motorways is also generally poor due to our daft 70mph (lowest in EU) speed limit - but much there is EVEN WORSE discipline and spacing in scamera zones (worst of all in SPECS - here, everyone seems to be in a blind spot with two parallel nose-to-tail snakes rolling along just waiting for a trigger for the inevitable pile up). I would be amazed if enforcing 70mph on clear Motorways does NOT increase the rate of 'collisions' (aka accidents).

I don't use M-Ways here now except for business travel as the amount of monitoring makes them unpleasant and dangerous to use. Luckily there are still enough A and B roads that can be enjoyed in Wales, North Yorkshire and best of all The Highlands of Scotland.

I suspect my son will never actually enjoy driving however and that seems to be the main objective of all the state sanctioned bullying we witness.

However........ we really don't have to put up with it. IF enough people set of a scammer or drive past a civil servant (waste of space) in a van, then decided to go to court (NOT feed the SAC monster OR accept FPN) the system will be fked in days

When I hit the managed section of the M62 the other day, I knew it was there so slowed down and moved in at the beginning of it. Other people spied the cameras at the last minute and a few swerved in front of me and slammed on the brakes right in front of me. What was free flowing traffic became sticky with everyone bunched up and braking for every camera and absolutely no lane discipline whatsoever.

When I came to my exit I happened to be in the middle lane and last in a line of traffic that had been overtaking. As I was moving in everyone in front suddenly braked, causing me to brake as I was moving across which led to the traffic in the inside lane nearly piling into me. I know you have to be ready for these things and have eyes all around you at the best of times, but low limits and cameras everywhere just make the problem constant and worse than normal.

We're the most watched nation in the world with cameras everywhere videoing and photographing us. Stray over the speed limit or supposedly commit some parking infringement and you get a glorious technicolour photograph of yourself and your car along with a demand for money. When someone gets murdered, the most anyone comes up with is a grainy shot of the victim walking down a street ten minutes before the crime was committed.

[Terminator X]

Davidonly said:

However........ we really don't have to put up with it. IF enough people set of a scammer or drive past a civil servant (waste of space) in a van, then decided to go to court (NOT feed the SAC monster OR accept FPN) the system will be fked in days

I doubt the Mags will give you 3pts and a small fine

TX.

[anonymous-user]

Carl_Docklands said:

If they are safety cameras, I would prefer to see the speed cameras clearly identified separately in

I'll stick my head above the parapet with the unpopular view, They are traffic management cameras not safety cameras, if people don't follow the signals set automatically by the loops in the road monitoring traffic speeds (and now radar instead as tech has moved on) used to try and maintain a steady traffic flow throughput by education the next step is enforcement to meet the required aim?
The same happens in all sorts of things, many on PH love being 'educated' by the BIB rather than the enforcement even though they may not agree with it.

The ordinal purpose of the motorways etc ie Srn (strategic road network) was for long purpose journeys to enable quicker long distance journeys, there seems to be a misnomer that motorways are provided as a FREE alternative to track days where did that come from ? People too tight to pay to blat around on track days.

Things have moved on massively since the inception with traffic numbers, junctions too close together encouraging commuter traffic onto the motorway with associated weaving, vehicle spacing and braking issues so what do we do? Start closing junctions and taking motorways back to their original purpose and creating chaos on local roads or have 'demand' measures in place to enable everyone to rub along together and make the best of an overcrowded bad job where we are already losing billions a year due to congestion, much of it unnecessary ie rear end shunts, debris, ie thousands of lorry straps, bikes, canoes etc dropped on the carriageway causing mayhem.

If you have a better idea thinking about 'the bigger picture' feel free to stick it on a postcard

Or go on a trackday

[mybrainhurts]

speedyguy said:

Carl_Docklands said:

If they are safety cameras, I would prefer to see the speed cameras clearly identified separately in

I'll stick my head above the parapet with the unpopular view, They are traffic management cameras not safety cameras, if people don't follow the signals set automatically by the loops in the road monitoring traffic speeds (and now radar instead as tech has moved on) used to try and maintain a steady traffic flow throughput by education the next step is enforcement to meet the required aim?
The same happens in all sorts of things, many on PH love being 'educated' by the BIB rather than the enforcement even though they may not agree with it.

The ordinal purpose of the motorways etc ie Srn (strategic road network) was for long purpose journeys to enable quicker long distance journeys, there seems to be a misnomer that motorways are provided as a FREE alternative to track days where did that come from ? People too tight to pay to blat around on track days.

Things have moved on massively since the inception with traffic numbers, junctions too close together encouraging commuter traffic onto the motorway with associated weaving, vehicle spacing and braking issues so what do we do? Start closing junctions and taking motorways back to their original purpose and creating chaos on local roads or have 'demand' measures in place to enable everyone to rub along together and make the best of an overcrowded bad job where we are already losing billions a year due to congestion, much of it unnecessary ie rear end shunts, debris, ie thousands of lorry straps, bikes, canoes etc dropped on the carriageway causing mayhem.

If you have a better idea thinking about 'the bigger picture' feel free to stick it on a postcard

Or go on a trackday

Good try, but it doesn't hold water.

The M1 variables around Luton at 15.00 today had hard shoulder open with all lanes at 60. Traffic was VERY LIGHT.

At other times, the hard shoulder is shut in conditions of very heavy traffic.

It's also fun when a gantry malfunctions and suddenly switches to 20, quickly followed by red crosses over lanes 1 to 3, with 20 remaining in lane 4.

However, they will, I imagine, generate a lot of money for HMG.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Sunday 15th June 03:31

[Davidonly]

Terminator X said:

Davidonly said:

However........ we really don't have to put up with it. IF enough people set of a scammer or drive past a civil servant (waste of space) in a van, then decided to go to court (NOT feed the SAC monster OR accept FPN) the system will be fked in days

I doubt the Mags will give you 3pts and a small fine

TX.

Does not matter: there will be too many people to process. The system only works because we all (me included ) behave like lambs to the slaughter. We even know the system is corrupt and pointless but we still go along with it for fear of an extra point and an extra £200..............

[Davidonly]

mybrainhurts said:

speedyguy said:

Carl_Docklands said:

If they are safety cameras, I would prefer to see the speed cameras clearly identified separately in

I'll stick my head above the parapet with the unpopular view, They are traffic management cameras not safety cameras, if people don't follow the signals set automatically by the loops in the road monitoring traffic speeds (and now radar instead as tech has moved on) used to try and maintain a steady traffic flow throughput by education the next step is enforcement to meet the required aim?
The same happens in all sorts of things, many on PH love being 'educated' by the BIB rather than the enforcement even though they may not agree with it.

The ordinal purpose of the motorways etc ie Srn (strategic road network) was for long purpose journeys to enable quicker long distance journeys, there seems to be a misnomer that motorways are provided as a FREE alternative to track days where did that come from ? People too tight to pay to blat around on track days.

Things have moved on massively since the inception with traffic numbers, junctions too close together encouraging commuter traffic onto the motorway with associated weaving, vehicle spacing and braking issues so what do we do? Start closing junctions and taking motorways back to their original purpose and creating chaos on local roads or have 'demand' measures in place to enable everyone to rub along together and make the best of an overcrowded bad job where we are already losing billions a year due to congestion, much of it unnecessary ie rear end shunts, debris, ie thousands of lorry straps, bikes, canoes etc dropped on the carriageway causing mayhem.

If you have a better idea thinking about 'the bigger picture' feel free to stick it on a postcard

Or go on a trackday

Good try, but it doesn't hold water.

The M1 variables around Luton at 15.00 today had hard shoulder open with all lanes at 60. Traffic was VERY LIGHT.

At other times, the hard shoulder is shut in conditions of very heavy traffic.

It's also fun when a gantry malfunctions and suddenly switches to 20, quickly followed by red crosses over lanes 1 to 3, with 20 remaining in lane 4.

However, they will, I imagine, generate a lot of money for HMG.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Sunday 15th June 03:31

The issue is not the use of cameras to enforce limits at busy times. It is the fact that the NSL is set so low, at only 70mph, and when the traffic is light they enforce THAT with the new approach. Previously light traffic meant more sensible speeds could be selected.

Again, in Germany they use these matrix signs, gaining compliance without camera enforcement (at anywhere NEAR our level). Why/how? Because it's sensible to slow when it's busy knowing if it WAS quiet (and when traffic get lighter), the signs are switched off AND you can decide how fast to go for yourself. Much more reasonable eh?

[anonymous-user]

mybrainhurts said:

speedyguy said:

Carl_Docklands said:

If they are safety cameras, I would prefer to see the speed cameras clearly identified separately in

Stuff

Good try, but it doesn't hold water.

The M1 variables around Luton at 15.00 today had hard shoulder open with all lanes at 60. Traffic was VERY LIGHT.

At other times, the hard shoulder is shut in conditions of very heavy traffic.

It's also fun when a gantry malfunctions and suddenly switches to 20, quickly followed by red crosses over lanes 1 to 3, with 20 remaining in lane 4.

However, they will, I imagine, generate a lot of money for HMG.

They may do,

I'm not fully up to speed on how all the signal settings work on "SMART '?' motorways" you'll need a control room 'oppo for that, from what I remember when they first came in it was a 50max when HSR was implemented that has now been increased to 60, On the new ALR I'm not sure if default speed is now 70 unless stated otherwise.

Also there are all sorts of failsafe checks carried out before a HSR link will be opened including a patrol car running the route as well as the camera checks etc so they take some time to get open, there is also tech failure which may be quite minor but which will prevent a link being opened, from what I gather it is all up for and under review as experience is gained to keep more lanes open longer.

Questions keep getting asked about why don't the lanes remain open unless a signal is showing but that is a failsafe default if a signal is not working, ie keep out of the lane unless you are positively told to use it, I don't think that applies in the new ALR, confused yet some of us are .

Glossary
HSR Hard shoulder running.
ALR All lane running.(permanent)

[Carl_Docklands]

I don't have a problem with variable speed limits, especially the ones on the M1 at Luton and the M25 at Heathrow.

My point was, is that I don't class the Tonbridge section of the M25 in the same vein that those two sections and should not be subject to the same rules as those pinch points as it will cause more congestion.

Speedguy, talking about what to call the cameras is just pedantic, my other point was that I just want the cameras that do the different jobs clearly identified, I don't care what they are called or what you call them. When I see a line of 10 cameras, the speed ones should be yellow !

[Dairymilk]

Carl_Docklands said:

I don't have a problem with variable speed limits, especially the ones on the M1 at Luton and the M25 at Heathrow.

My point was, is that I don't class the Tonbridge section of the M25 in the same vein that those two sections and should not be subject to the same rules as those pinch points as it will cause more congestion.

Speedguy, talking about what to call the cameras is just pedantic, my other point was that I just want the cameras that do the different jobs clearly identified, I don't care what they are called or what you call them. When I see a line of 10 cameras, the speed ones should be yellow !

Why?

[havoc]

Whilst I don't particularly like the way they're used, I CAN see the benefit of the variable limit strategy* at the BUSIEST points. However...

1) As above, the Clacketts Lane stretch is far from the busiest point on the M25...confused why they've implemented it there...

2) The HADECS are ALWAYS on - they enforce the 70** limit AND the variable limits. This is the game-changer that most people are (IMHO rightly) moaning about.



* Unlike SPECS, which I believe breeds inappropriate and occasionally dangerous behaviours in drivers.

** Up until now, NEVER strictly enforced anywhere in the M-way limit - Trafpol have repeatedly stated that an otherwise well-behaved car, in the right conditions, will be left alone at north of 80mph. And note that Euro limits are almost all 75 or 80mph, often for 2-lane M-ways not the 3-4 lane ones we enjoy...