Guess what - used car purchase problem. Help?
Discussion
This thread raises an issue of which i fell foul - our willingness to travel an hour to buy a car from a dealer and expect them to honour the warranty or sale of goods act.
Not the slightest problem of course.....until you then have a recurring problem with the car and/or move home.
I learnt my lesson with an Audi I bought from a dealer in Norwich. My mistake was taking delivery of the car before all the faults were fixed.
As usual they washed and valeted it and put it on the forecourt. I thought it was lovely (I still do 40,000 miles and 21 months later), and agreed to buy it.
They then MOT'd it and had to replace the rear brakes and tyres and fix a non-functioning electronic handbrake. I pointed out to them that the aircon wasn't working. They spent over £1000 trying to get it working (3 faults fixed by the Audi main dealer) and failed. They even got the Audi dealer to come and collect the car (60 miles each way) and leave me a £40,000 loan car, after the first failure to fix.
My mistake was to take delivery of it with outstanding faults rather than waiting - it actually needs a new A/C compressor. And when the MMI screen failed to rise on start up a month later, I got it fixed locally rather than take it back to them, on their promise of a cheque by return.....yes, you guessed, the cheque for £695 never materialised.
Why didn't I take it back to them? 60 miles each way. So 360 miles fuel and four hours on the road for both of us by the time my wife had followed me there and brought me home, and delivered me back to collect the car. Not their fault I lived so far away. And I compounded it by moving a further 60 miles away.
I will be buying locally in future if i buy from a dealer again.
Not the slightest problem of course.....until you then have a recurring problem with the car and/or move home.
I learnt my lesson with an Audi I bought from a dealer in Norwich. My mistake was taking delivery of the car before all the faults were fixed.
As usual they washed and valeted it and put it on the forecourt. I thought it was lovely (I still do 40,000 miles and 21 months later), and agreed to buy it.
They then MOT'd it and had to replace the rear brakes and tyres and fix a non-functioning electronic handbrake. I pointed out to them that the aircon wasn't working. They spent over £1000 trying to get it working (3 faults fixed by the Audi main dealer) and failed. They even got the Audi dealer to come and collect the car (60 miles each way) and leave me a £40,000 loan car, after the first failure to fix.
My mistake was to take delivery of it with outstanding faults rather than waiting - it actually needs a new A/C compressor. And when the MMI screen failed to rise on start up a month later, I got it fixed locally rather than take it back to them, on their promise of a cheque by return.....yes, you guessed, the cheque for £695 never materialised.
Why didn't I take it back to them? 60 miles each way. So 360 miles fuel and four hours on the road for both of us by the time my wife had followed me there and brought me home, and delivered me back to collect the car. Not their fault I lived so far away. And I compounded it by moving a further 60 miles away.
I will be buying locally in future if i buy from a dealer again.
10 Pence Short said:
Why is a £20 code reader bought from fleabay going to be better than the diagnostic equipment in garages?
Because it takes about 2 minutes to connect and you don't have to trust a garage to relay the correct info to you. Or leave a wireless version installed for the duration of the issue, log in with smart phone.V8 Fettler said:
That's a bizarre question, you're normally quite lucid, is it a Monday morning thing? Who said anything about lying?
I'm trying to understand how someone would get their problem fixed faster and/or cheaper by using a cheap code reader. I was then wondering how an amateur with such a device would be more successful diagnosing a problem than a professional with professional equipment?10 Pence Short said:
V8 Fettler said:
That's a bizarre question, you're normally quite lucid, is it a Monday morning thing? Who said anything about lying?
I'm trying to understand how someone would get their problem fixed faster and/or cheaper by using a cheap code reader. I was then wondering how an amateur with such a device would be more successful diagnosing a problem than a professional with professional equipment?V8 Fettler said:
So where did the lying bit come from then?
Perhaps I'm coming across overly antagonistic, however the inference from your earlier post, that you no longer have to trust the garage to give you correct information, is that you believe the garages may be giving out false information.I'm sat here with an old E46 with a similar EML issue that nobody can diagnose, so I'm genuinely interested in your answer as to why an Ebay bought reader will do for me what BMW can't.
10 Pence Short said:
V8 Fettler said:
So where did the lying bit come from then?
Perhaps I'm coming across overly antagonistic, however the inference from your earlier post, that you no longer have to trust the garage to give you correct information, is that you believe the garages may be giving out false information.I'm sat here with an old E46 with a similar EML issue that nobody can diagnose, so I'm genuinely interested in your answer.
A code reader can circumnavigate the known unknowns eg competence of the independent, competence of the dealer, human communication errors (too many links in the chain). A code reader will not provide the answer on every occasion, but it's a good starting point and a realistic alternative to leaving the car with a dealer for unspecified periods. All EML issues can be correctly diagnosed and resolved, the only unknowns are time and cost. It's only a machine!
With regards to trusting dealers/garages, most people start their motoring "careers" (if there is such a thing) with complete trust in dealers and garages. Many end up with a default distrust of all dealers/garages until that trust is earned.
And you believe a person is more likely to resolve a fault as a layman with an £18 code reader than a number of garages with trained mechanics and experience of diagnosing faults in highly complex mechanical and eelctronic machines?
A code reader is a nice gadget but it's about as much use as a cock flavoured lollipop if you're unable to get more/better information from it than garages can with their own.
A code reader is a nice gadget but it's about as much use as a cock flavoured lollipop if you're unable to get more/better information from it than garages can with their own.
I don't know if that car has a timstamped fault history file recorded when things go wrong.
Assuming it doesn't; then some sort of real time fault reader could be useful if it allowed the driver to see the order in which faults occurred, or perhaps recall what was happening at the time.
Assuming it doesn't; then some sort of real time fault reader could be useful if it allowed the driver to see the order in which faults occurred, or perhaps recall what was happening at the time.
10 Pence Short said:
And you believe a person is more likely to resolve a fault as a layman with an £18 code reader than a number of garages with trained mechanics and experience of diagnosing faults in highly complex mechanical and eelctronic machines?
A code reader is a nice gadget but it's about as much use as a cock flavoured lollipop if you're unable to get more/better information from it than garages can with their own.
That's another bizarre question, must be a Monday morning thing. Are you trying to play lawyerly word games? I can play those as well. Who is the "a person"?A code reader is a nice gadget but it's about as much use as a cock flavoured lollipop if you're unable to get more/better information from it than garages can with their own.
You're missing the point re: £20 code reader vs garage kit. It's not about the capability of the garage kit, it's about the human links between the garage kit and the punter; there's probably a flow chart somewhere describing this.
10 Pence Short said:
And you believe a person is more likely to resolve a fault as a layman with an £18 code reader than a number of garages with trained mechanics and experience of diagnosing faults in highly complex mechanical and eelctronic machines?
A code reader is a nice gadget but it's about as much use as a cock flavoured lollipop if you're unable to get more/better information from it than garages can with their own.
The garage's code reader is not normally any different to your £18 one. Whether their interpretation of the results is worth the £40 they charge to plug it in of course varies from garage to garage.A code reader is a nice gadget but it's about as much use as a cock flavoured lollipop if you're unable to get more/better information from it than garages can with their own.
I don't have an issue with paying a "diagnostic charge" where there are multiple faults logged that require some mechanical knowledge to work out what the actual issue is. I do have an issue with paying £40 for someone to plug in a code reader, see that it says "steering angle sensor failed" or something similar, and then have the mechanic tell me "the steering angle sensor has failed, you need a new one", and then charging me the normal rate for doing so on top of the £40.
They have not added £40 of value, and I therefore don't want to pay it.
In reply to BMW Ben...
That's a different argument. You're saying you don't see value in their diagnosing the fault.
If you turn up at a garage saying, "I've diagnosed the fault myself, it gives this code and my internet research tells me XYZ must be the cause, so replace these parts", do you think a regular Joe has an increased chance of the fault being rectified satisfactorily?
That's a different argument. You're saying you don't see value in their diagnosing the fault.
If you turn up at a garage saying, "I've diagnosed the fault myself, it gives this code and my internet research tells me XYZ must be the cause, so replace these parts", do you think a regular Joe has an increased chance of the fault being rectified satisfactorily?
V8 Fettler said:
10 Pence Short said:
How does the 'human chain' in a garage prevent the correct diagnoses and repair of a fault?
Can you please stop flailing around. You haven't answered my earlier question: who is the "a person"?Now can you please explain how a garage having more than one person between the code reader and the punter would make it more difficult for them to diagnose and fix a fault than if the OP had his own code reader.
10 Pence Short said:
V8 Fettler said:
10 Pence Short said:
How does the 'human chain' in a garage prevent the correct diagnoses and repair of a fault?
Can you please stop flailing around. You haven't answered my earlier question: who is the "a person"?Now can you please explain how a garage having more than one person between the code reader and the punter would make it more difficult for them to diagnose and fix a fault than if the OP had his own code reader.
You're still missing the point. It doesn't necessarily make it more difficult, but it does introduce the possibility of error. OP plus code reader = opportunity to go round that possible error.
10 Pence Short said:
In reply to BMW Ben...
That's a different argument. You're saying you don't see value in their diagnosing the fault.
If you turn up at a garage saying, "I've diagnosed the fault myself, it gives this code and my internet research tells me XYZ must be the cause, so replace these parts", do you think a regular Joe has an increased chance of the fault being rectified satisfactorily?
Not quite - I don't see £40 of value in what it takes to diagnose most faults and they apply a flat fee regardless of how easy it was. Most faults are diagnosed by plugging in a machine (a cheap, readily available machine) and pushing a button. I don't want to do it myself particularly, but I don't want to be charged for what at most garages is half an hour of labour for what is a 2 minute job. It's a rip off. Especially seeing as when I've attempted to have a more complex fault diagnosed that you couldn't just read what it says on the screen for, they've failed to do it and have come back to me asking for diagnostic work to be carried out under their normal labour rate. Oh, plus the £40 of course.That's a different argument. You're saying you don't see value in their diagnosing the fault.
If you turn up at a garage saying, "I've diagnosed the fault myself, it gives this code and my internet research tells me XYZ must be the cause, so replace these parts", do you think a regular Joe has an increased chance of the fault being rectified satisfactorily?
In summary, the OP has been to two garages, one a main Peugeot dealer with I presume staff who are experienced with his particular model, who have not yet managed to successfully diagnose the fault. Your suggestion, is that the OP spends £18 on Ebay or wherever to diagnose the fault for himself instead. You claim that he will stand more chance of getting it right than the professionals at the garages, including the main dealer, because there are less people between the code reader and the OP. This is despite the £18 code reader being no more able than the garage's equipment to discover codes and the OP, I presume, not being a qualified mechanic or experienced with fixing that particular model.
Is that an accurate summary?
Edited to add- now the light has come back on, it is probably the opportune moment to take it back to the main dealer for diagnosis. It may be that through negotiation the supplying dealer may cover some of the cost or loss of amenity in driving the car to the garage and leaving it there (not to mention the diagnostic cost).
Is that an accurate summary?
Edited to add- now the light has come back on, it is probably the opportune moment to take it back to the main dealer for diagnosis. It may be that through negotiation the supplying dealer may cover some of the cost or loss of amenity in driving the car to the garage and leaving it there (not to mention the diagnostic cost).
Edited by 10 Pence Short on Monday 12th May 10:18
10 Pence Short said:
In summary, the OP has been to two garages, one a main Peugeot dealer with I presume staff who are experienced with his particular model, who have not yet managed to successfully diagnose the fault. Your suggestion, is that the OP spends £18 on Ebay or wherever to diagnose the fault for himself instead. You claim that he will stand more chance of getting it right than the professionals at the garages, including the main dealer, because there are less people between the code reader and the OP. This is despite the £18 code reader being no more able than the garage's equipment to discover codes and the OP, I presume, not being a qualified mechanic or experienced with fixing that particular model.
Is that an accurate summary?
Edited to add- now the light has come back on, it is probably the opportune moment to take it back to the main dealer for diagnosis. It may be that through negotiation the supplying dealer may cover some of the cost or loss of amenity in driving the car to the garage and leaving it there (not to mention the diagnostic cost).
On what basis do you assume that the staff are experienced? Please provide your evidence. My claim is that the dealer/indie/main dealer have failed so far, this has cost the punter time and money, this statement is based on the punter's evidence. Time to take an alternative real-world view at the cost of £18.Is that an accurate summary?
Edited to add- now the light has come back on, it is probably the opportune moment to take it back to the main dealer for diagnosis. It may be that through negotiation the supplying dealer may cover some of the cost or loss of amenity in driving the car to the garage and leaving it there (not to mention the diagnostic cost).
Edited by 10 Pence Short on Monday 12th May 10:18
Don't need to be a qualified mechanic or experienced with fixing that particular model to read codes via an £18 reader.
Good luck with fixing your E46, have you tried a code reader? £18 or so on ebay
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