Guess what - used car purchase problem. Help?
Discussion
V8 Fettler said:
10 Pence Short said:
In summary, the OP has been to two garages, one a main Peugeot dealer with I presume staff who are experienced with his particular model, who have not yet managed to successfully diagnose the fault. Your suggestion, is that the OP spends £18 on Ebay or wherever to diagnose the fault for himself instead. You claim that he will stand more chance of getting it right than the professionals at the garages, including the main dealer, because there are less people between the code reader and the OP. This is despite the £18 code reader being no more able than the garage's equipment to discover codes and the OP, I presume, not being a qualified mechanic or experienced with fixing that particular model.
Is that an accurate summary?
Edited to add- now the light has come back on, it is probably the opportune moment to take it back to the main dealer for diagnosis. It may be that through negotiation the supplying dealer may cover some of the cost or loss of amenity in driving the car to the garage and leaving it there (not to mention the diagnostic cost).
On what basis do you assume that the staff are experienced? Please provide your evidence. My claim is that the dealer/indie/main dealer have failed so far, this has cost the punter time and money, this statement is based on the punter's evidence. Time to take an alternative real-world view at the cost of £18.Is that an accurate summary?
Edited to add- now the light has come back on, it is probably the opportune moment to take it back to the main dealer for diagnosis. It may be that through negotiation the supplying dealer may cover some of the cost or loss of amenity in driving the car to the garage and leaving it there (not to mention the diagnostic cost).
Edited by 10 Pence Short on Monday 12th May 10:18
Don't need to be a qualified mechanic or experienced with fixing that particular model to read codes via an £18 reader.
Good luck with fixing your E46, have you tried a code reader? £18 or so on ebay
As for me, I did exactly what was suggested after VW twice failed to diagnose (but didn't fail to charge) a fault which had brought up the EPC light.
A '£20 fault code reader from fleabay' told me where the problem area was and gave me enough of an idea to solve it.
10 Pence Short said:
In reply to BMW Ben...
That's a different argument. You're saying you don't see value in their diagnosing the fault.
If you turn up at a garage saying, "I've diagnosed the fault myself, it gives this code and my internet research tells me XYZ must be the cause, so replace these parts", do you think a regular Joe has an increased chance of the fault being rectified satisfactorily?
It can be difficult leading the contractor through the fault resolution process, needs people skills. Contractor needs to buy into the proposed solution. That's a different argument. You're saying you don't see value in their diagnosing the fault.
If you turn up at a garage saying, "I've diagnosed the fault myself, it gives this code and my internet research tells me XYZ must be the cause, so replace these parts", do you think a regular Joe has an increased chance of the fault being rectified satisfactorily?
Gillett66 said:
I too was wondering where this unwavering faith in employees of car garages has arisen?
There is logic in presuming you'll find qualified, equipped and experienced mechanics in garages. That doesn't mean they'll all be perfect or get it right every time. It is more logical than to expect a better result from an untrained, inexperienced and ill equipped member of the public who buys a code reader and tries to self diagnose.
If you had an MRI machine would you prefer to self diagnose your ailment when a doctor had found it tough to do so?
A code thrown up is the beginning of the hunt for the problem, not the end. It can be the symptom and not the cause (as the OP has already found).
Advising the OP to DIY I don't think is the most helpful, in this instance.
10 Pence Short said:
Gillett66 said:
I too was wondering where this unwavering faith in employees of car garages has arisen?
There is logic in presuming you'll find qualified, equipped and experienced mechanics in garages. That doesn't mean they'll all be perfect or get it right every time. It is more logical than to expect a better result from an untrained, inexperienced and ill equipped member of the public who buys a code reader and tries to self diagnose.
If you had an MRI machine would you prefer to self diagnose your ailment when a doctor had found it tough to do so?
A code thrown up is the beginning of the hunt for the problem, not the end. It can be the symptom and not the cause (as the OP has already found).
Advising the OP to DIY I don't think is the most helpful, in this instance.
I don't think anyone has advised the punter to DIY as opposed to garage. He's tried the garage, it's cost him time and money, logic suggests take an alternative view for £18.
There is a long long thread on here somewhere where I asked for help with a Ford Focus and a DPF light. Though the car was much newer than yours (10 plate) we had similar issues in that the dealer (a large franchise) just couldn't fix the fault. We had 3 months of going back and forth with this fault under the warranty and they tried many fixes but the light always reappeared. In the end they did refund in full, but as I say this was a franchise with a newer car.
Have you actually mentioned them taking it back?
Have you actually mentioned them taking it back?
Of no use to the OP, but this is the problem with outputting all faults to a ridiculously meaningless error. A mate had a 407 with the same outputted error, but I would assume a completely different cause. If anyone has had the misfortune to use Lotus Notes, it's a bit like the infamous "An error has occurred while opening a window."
Why does the OP have to buy a reader? The codes are in the ECU's storage, the car has a screen in it - why can't it display a sensible list of fault codes via a "diagnostics" menu?
Why does the OP have to buy a reader? The codes are in the ECU's storage, the car has a screen in it - why can't it display a sensible list of fault codes via a "diagnostics" menu?
ELM327 bluetooth ODB readers are £7 on eBay - work perfectly.
I would buy one, just so you can clear the fault yourself and see if the same fault comes back. If it's always the same fault code, this'll give you some more Googling power.
But Googling seems to suggest this is a common problem, without a common solution.
I would simply keep returning the car until it's fixed.
I would buy one, just so you can clear the fault yourself and see if the same fault comes back. If it's always the same fault code, this'll give you some more Googling power.
But Googling seems to suggest this is a common problem, without a common solution.
I would simply keep returning the car until it's fixed.
Usget said:
Of no use to the OP, but this is the problem with outputting all faults to a ridiculously meaningless error. A mate had a 407 with the same outputted error, but I would assume a completely different cause. If anyone has had the misfortune to use Lotus Notes, it's a bit like the infamous "An error has occurred while opening a window."
Why does the OP have to buy a reader? The codes are in the ECU's storage, the car has a screen in it - why can't it display a sensible list of fault codes via a "diagnostics" menu?
Some manufacturers provide basis info re: error codes, but OBD2 is the internationally agreed protocol. There's nothing on a practical basis to prevent modern cars from providing easily accessible data to punters. Might cause a few issues at the main dealers though when Mildred presents the download from the data logger on her Jazz on a weekly basis.Why does the OP have to buy a reader? The codes are in the ECU's storage, the car has a screen in it - why can't it display a sensible list of fault codes via a "diagnostics" menu?
One of the benefits of having your own code reader is that you can leave it permanently connected ( particularly bluetooth ones) which allows, with a suitable free app, the OP to record on a smartphone or tablet the parameters of each journey, this may assist the repairing dealer in identifying what exactly went wrong at what particular point in time and in what order the error codes were created. it may also highlight a particular set of circumstances that have caused the EML to light.
It allows the OP to provide a more detailed report to the dealer than a spot check of plugging the code reader in.
It allows the OP to provide a more detailed report to the dealer than a spot check of plugging the code reader in.
Wow..... this thread escalated quickly 
To answer some of the points:
My comment about the OBD reader was really just for my own curiosity and also to give me a guide as to whether the garage are trying to BS us. I know quite a lot about cars and my job is a diagnostician in a different field so I understand the processes they're following, but I don't fix cars for a living so I have to accept "the experts" are looking at it. Given we're not paying for the work it can just keep going back until it's fixed.
It's true that there are a lot of potential causes for this error on the 207 GTi (and yes it does share the Mini Cooper S engine).
It doesn't seem to affect the way the car drives - I say "doesn't seem to" because my wife isn't a car person at all and isn't likely to notice a problem unless it was obvious (juddering/limp-home mode/etc).
The latest update is that the supplying dealer are happy for the car to go to our local Pug dealer on the basis that the supplying dealer will authorise and pick up the tab for the work. Don't think we could ask for much more really as it removes the problem of the two hour round trip and makes things much more convenient all round.
All I have to do is make sure that the local Pug dealer understand we've already been round the "clear the codes and see if it comes back" stage of the investigation (twice) and if they just clear the codes I will say nasty hurty words to them
To answer some of the points:
My comment about the OBD reader was really just for my own curiosity and also to give me a guide as to whether the garage are trying to BS us. I know quite a lot about cars and my job is a diagnostician in a different field so I understand the processes they're following, but I don't fix cars for a living so I have to accept "the experts" are looking at it. Given we're not paying for the work it can just keep going back until it's fixed.
It's true that there are a lot of potential causes for this error on the 207 GTi (and yes it does share the Mini Cooper S engine).
It doesn't seem to affect the way the car drives - I say "doesn't seem to" because my wife isn't a car person at all and isn't likely to notice a problem unless it was obvious (juddering/limp-home mode/etc).
The latest update is that the supplying dealer are happy for the car to go to our local Pug dealer on the basis that the supplying dealer will authorise and pick up the tab for the work. Don't think we could ask for much more really as it removes the problem of the two hour round trip and makes things much more convenient all round.
All I have to do is make sure that the local Pug dealer understand we've already been round the "clear the codes and see if it comes back" stage of the investigation (twice) and if they just clear the codes I will say nasty hurty words to them
My wife has had a BMW mini cooper s from new. Engine management light came on. Codes were cleared and I then filled it up with Optimax . Light stayed off. Hasn't come back on since. She'd been putting supermarket petrol in it as " it's easier". Not sure if this helps but worth a try. All the other lights flash on and off but that's another issue!
Breadvan72 said:
Your view appears to me balanced and sensible. This does not sound to me like a rejection issue.
PS: Stuff like this is one of the many reasons why all cars designed after approx 1995 are rubbish.
what a stupid remark all cars post 95 are rubbish!PS: Stuff like this is one of the many reasons why all cars designed after approx 1995 are rubbish.
No just dont by a french car and cry when it gives you grief there is a reason a polo gti cost more money.
friend who has always shared my distain for french cars became seduced by a cheap megan 1.5 dci 56 plate, cheap car, tax and good spec
3 days after purchased it just power and stalled for his wife and she got a parking ticket. So far his £1800 bargin has swallowed £600 of parts blow 4 master fuses had a knew alternator and still cust out no warning codes at all to read!
Had an issue with my old company 12 month old grand scenic factory breaks squealed renaults solution by some new ones (10000 on the clock 12 mths old) and the stop start system failed weekly but renault dealer can find no wrong or fault codes! cheap tat!
OP, 207OC has a great group of people with GTIs that will be able to advise you on the symptoms your cars giving and where to narrow your search to, everyone i know with one has the same issues. There is also a Diagnostic program specifically for Peugeot THP engines that is helpful in reading specific codes.
I had one that gave endless issues. High pressure fuel pump is common for going, carbon build up on inlet valves and sensors aswell. Dependant on where you are based Ecosse Peugeot in Boness are very good with these cars. Mine spent alot of time there. Dealers were not very helpful as Pug are not very good at finding the faults with these engines (THP) Mini Cooper S of same era also have the same issues so could be worth researching them aswell.
I definitely recommend visiting the 207 Owners club for help on the car and garages that are helpful.
I had one that gave endless issues. High pressure fuel pump is common for going, carbon build up on inlet valves and sensors aswell. Dependant on where you are based Ecosse Peugeot in Boness are very good with these cars. Mine spent alot of time there. Dealers were not very helpful as Pug are not very good at finding the faults with these engines (THP) Mini Cooper S of same era also have the same issues so could be worth researching them aswell.
I definitely recommend visiting the 207 Owners club for help on the car and garages that are helpful.
GWS33 said:
OP, 207OC has a great group of people with GTIs that will be able to advise you on the symptoms your cars giving and where to narrow your search to, everyone i know with one has the same issues. There is also a Diagnostic program specifically for Peugeot THP engines that is helpful in reading specific codes.
I had one that gave endless issues. High pressure fuel pump is common for going, carbon build up on inlet valves and sensors aswell. Dependant on where you are based Ecosse Peugeot in Boness are very good with these cars. Mine spent alot of time there. Dealers were not very helpful as Pug are not very good at finding the faults with these engines (THP) Mini Cooper S of same era also have the same issues so could be worth researching them aswell.
I definitely recommend visiting the 207 Owners club for help on the car and garages that are helpful.
It's a farcical position to be in, a main dealer should hold ultimate expertise (from the manufacturer) and be able to wheel someone out of the cupboard with the ability to fix any issue that arises swiftly and efficiently. Not just Peugeot though, Ford used to be embarrassingly poor, maybe they've improved over the years.I had one that gave endless issues. High pressure fuel pump is common for going, carbon build up on inlet valves and sensors aswell. Dependant on where you are based Ecosse Peugeot in Boness are very good with these cars. Mine spent alot of time there. Dealers were not very helpful as Pug are not very good at finding the faults with these engines (THP) Mini Cooper S of same era also have the same issues so could be worth researching them aswell.
I definitely recommend visiting the 207 Owners club for help on the car and garages that are helpful.
My Vette had an ABS problem throwing codes all over the place. Managed to clear codes, and the only two that returned were an open circuit and rotation speed error on separate wheels on the same axle, but intermittent. Put it in to corvette (SAAB pretending to be corvette) who suggested changing the main ABS unit at a massive cost. I was not happy with that as the errors were being thrown by wheel sensors IMHO.
So I paid the bill for allowing them to practice on my car, and took it home for some back to basics diagnostics. Swapped the wiring harnesses across sides, cleaning all the connectors etc to try to move the error, didn't change. Looked up codes by searching the electronic manual and really could not understand the split across the axle. Faffed a lot more, still no sense.
Then I read the paper manual codes line by line. It was wrong, and one of the codes was attributed to the wrong wheel simulating a split across the axle when inputting the code and getting a description spat back by the computer, but in fact they were on the same wheel. $130 plus shipping and HMRC scam money for a hum sensor, plus 1 DIY hour later all was working. Saved about 1600 quid.
I have had similar examples on my ex-wife's vauxhall, where I actually left a note for the monkey on how to reproduce the stall fault, specifically, not by "run in it round the block", or put it on a static computer in the workshop, but put a computer in the car and run it for a couple of junctions on the motorway, and lift off to exit - it would stall at 60mph which is fun in an auto wth power everything an a weak woman driver. They ignored the info twice, didn't have a clue and were just gonna work through a list of parts - so DIY again.
I learned basic diagnostics the old fashioned way from my late dad, a brilliant engineer who used to get the exotic stuff that other garages could not fix. There was a level of thought and logic involved. Nowadays, the diags are done by a computer, with no real need for thought except from the more diligent engineers. IME these are far and few between, most being "part changers" who just change what the computer says.
Fortunately, the guy that looks after my oddball cars is old school. He mostly diagnoses using the computer and his skill. When he is not sure, we discuss it and try to apply logic. It's not infallible, but I would trust him above a main agent not to just replace a list of parts in the order the computer says.
I don't know why I have written this "cool story Bro" except to say that if you find a good spanner, stick with him no matter where you get your car, or what badge it has on it.
So I paid the bill for allowing them to practice on my car, and took it home for some back to basics diagnostics. Swapped the wiring harnesses across sides, cleaning all the connectors etc to try to move the error, didn't change. Looked up codes by searching the electronic manual and really could not understand the split across the axle. Faffed a lot more, still no sense.
Then I read the paper manual codes line by line. It was wrong, and one of the codes was attributed to the wrong wheel simulating a split across the axle when inputting the code and getting a description spat back by the computer, but in fact they were on the same wheel. $130 plus shipping and HMRC scam money for a hum sensor, plus 1 DIY hour later all was working. Saved about 1600 quid.
I have had similar examples on my ex-wife's vauxhall, where I actually left a note for the monkey on how to reproduce the stall fault, specifically, not by "run in it round the block", or put it on a static computer in the workshop, but put a computer in the car and run it for a couple of junctions on the motorway, and lift off to exit - it would stall at 60mph which is fun in an auto wth power everything an a weak woman driver. They ignored the info twice, didn't have a clue and were just gonna work through a list of parts - so DIY again.
I learned basic diagnostics the old fashioned way from my late dad, a brilliant engineer who used to get the exotic stuff that other garages could not fix. There was a level of thought and logic involved. Nowadays, the diags are done by a computer, with no real need for thought except from the more diligent engineers. IME these are far and few between, most being "part changers" who just change what the computer says.
Fortunately, the guy that looks after my oddball cars is old school. He mostly diagnoses using the computer and his skill. When he is not sure, we discuss it and try to apply logic. It's not infallible, but I would trust him above a main agent not to just replace a list of parts in the order the computer says.
I don't know why I have written this "cool story Bro" except to say that if you find a good spanner, stick with him no matter where you get your car, or what badge it has on it.
V8 Fettler said:
It's a farcical position to be in, a main dealer should hold ultimate expertise (from the manufacturer) and be able to wheel someone out of the cupboard with the ability to fix any issue that arises swiftly and efficiently. Not just Peugeot though, Ford used to be embarrassingly poor, maybe they've improved over the years.
I agree was a complete joke especially when i had warranty and had to go down the Ecosse route out of my own pocket.Edited by GWS33 on Tuesday 13th May 17:57
GWS33 said:
I agree was a complete joke especially when i had warranty and had to go down the Ecosse route out of my own pocket.
Problem is it's not a pug engine it's a Brazilian made joint partnership thing. Maybe a BMW bini specialist would have more luck as they it's see more of these tan pug dealers.Edited by GWS33 on Tuesday 13th May 17:57
I am amazed how Renault dealers seems to be completely unable to solve any faults on their cars even a 12 month old one. Despite the car throwing up error messages nothing is stored in the memory.
Problem being most main dealer techs are part fitters they just replaced sealed units these days and do as a computers or not.
Please tell me that at least one of the garages has checked the wiring loom and connectors. I had very similar symptoms on a Fiat Punto, and eventually traced it back to a dirty contact between the ECU and wiring loom. 5 minute job with a £4 can of electrical contact cleaner, problem solved!
As everyone has suggested a code reader would be beneficial as each code relate to a number of items so you can quickly narrow down the possibilities, it also helps you go in armed as some Peugeot dealerships are shocking! Only the master tech is actually able to work on the car and the vast majority have never seen one, I remember taking mine there and the guy asked "What's that then".
I'm very familiar with the 207 GTI, having owned and modified one I had literally every fault known. Happy to have a chat if you want to drop me a PM.
I'd also suggest registering on an owners club, 207oc is the best!
I'm very familiar with the 207 GTI, having owned and modified one I had literally every fault known. Happy to have a chat if you want to drop me a PM.
I'd also suggest registering on an owners club, 207oc is the best!
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