"What has happened to our police force?"

"What has happened to our police force?"

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Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
Elroy Blue said:
Your reply was 'rubbish, you've got enough to waste time on this'.
No, my reply was the bit you edited out of your quote.
Elroy Blue said:
You're the master at completely changing context and sticking your fingers in your ears going lah! lah! lah!.
Resorting to insults? Bearing this in mind,
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz said:
Elroy Blue said:
Cameron's Gov introduced S91 Police Act 1996.
Considering David Cameron didn't even become an MP until 2001, I struggle to see how it was 'his' Conservatives who introduced that law?
the ice under you might be a bit thin.


Edited by Rovinghawk on Wednesday 4th June 16:31

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
La Liga said:
We had a call to an area of 15 fighting with weapons. It was a group of 6-10 year olds play-fighting with sticks. Several police cars probably looked silly to the casual observer (although most were cancelled prior to arrival), but you get the point.
Almost on cue:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-27...

omegac

358 posts

218 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
Plus the fact that you're all assuming the informant can speak English to give a clear and concise report of what is actually happening.

As for resources, my wife had 50+ on her queue of callbacks the other night, so even telephone reporting isn't lightening the workload that much.

Elroy Blue

8,686 posts

191 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz said:
Considering David Cameron didn't even become an MP until 2001, I struggle to see how it was 'his' Conservatives who introduced that law?

Would you heap praise on Ed Miliband's Labour for all the good things they did for the Police between 1997 and 2010?
Amendments were made in 2012 that made it an offence to spread 'alarm' amongst the public. (Although it was to the Police conduct regs, not S91 as I initially thought. We were told in no uncertain terms that if we told the public how few Officers were on duty, we would be committing this offence.

PC James Patrick in the Met wrote a book called 'The rest is silence' about the effect of cuts to Policing. He was disciplined under this very amendment.

"A police whistleblower is facing an inquiry into alleged gross misconduct and has been told not to use Twitter after he raised concerns about the reform of the service on the social media site.

James Patrick, a constable in the Metropolitan police, is one of four officers to have been encouraged or told not to use social media by senior managers at forces in England and Wales in the past few weeks.

Patrick has spent months highlighting on a blog and on Twitter his belief that cuts to the police service and reforms will affect public safety. His lawyer Karen Todner said he had tried to raise these issues with his senior officers to no avail. She said: "He is a whistleblower and what this is about is freedom of expression. This is someone who has tried to raise his concerns through the legitimate channels but was not able to do so."

Patrick has now been forced to resign.

As for your other point. Labour did indeed bring a great deal of politics into Policing. What they didn't do is systematically dismantle the service and then cut some more. Politics has no place in Policing, regardless of the tie colour.




carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
Elroy Blue said:
Amendments were made in 2012 that made it an offence to spread 'alarm' amongst the public. (Although it was to the Police conduct regs, not S91 as I initially thought. We were told in no uncertain terms that if we told the public how few Officers were on duty, we would be committing this offence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWam4EWI48M

I guess everybody has nothing to hide if they stay on message?

skeggysteve

5,724 posts

216 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
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Mk3Spitfire said:
....
He gave an example of something that happened, and stated a lot of police turned up....
With respect Mk3 you didn't really answer the question that I sort of asked!

I said "There have been a few posts on here about lack of manpower" then told an account of lots of police/PCSO turning up at a 'domestic'.

I know all about undermanning - a few years ago I went to a house to fix a mobility scooter and the owner didn't answer the door, I went the local police station (Stamford, Lincs) and was told that there were only two officers on duty and they were both at a RTA on the A16.


carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
A few years ago I was told that there were three officers on duty overnight covering a rural area of about 12 miles by 18 miles. A property got done one weekend. It was fixed. A few weeks later it was done again for the same stuff.

But I got that tale secondhand, though I know the crimes happened as were reported.

There was an incident of that area where a householder went out to remonstrate with drunken teenagers outside late at night. He got a good beating for his trouble. I think he died, but I'd have to check.

Regarding policing rural areas, I know someone in North America with a place out in the sticks. That got done twice. I think they were advised to improve security but they came back and had another go and took stuff of a more personal, sentimental value. It's more the harm done to the victims than the value of the stuff. That place must be defiled for that family now. They'll sell it as they can't keep it secure and the emotional ties have probably been tainted forever. Scum.

Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 4th June 19:35

skeggysteve

5,724 posts

216 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
Elroy Blue said:
skeggysteve said:
.............
Do people think that if the traffic police were a separate force would the real (for want of a better way to describe them!) police get more respect from the public?

.....................
What are these 'not real, traffic' Police you speak of???
Elroy, I'm sure you are not that stupid to not know what I meant!

My thinking was that as the traffic police tend to prosecute the motorist rather than help (sweeping generalization I know but...) where as the the non traffic police tend to be more helping, responding to a 999 call etc. That by separating the two might help the public respect the non traffic more and so get more help from the public?

Mk3Spitfire

2,921 posts

127 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
skeggysteve said:
Elroy, I'm sure you are not that stupid to not know what I meant!

My thinking was that as the traffic police tend to prosecute the motorist rather than help (sweeping generalization I know but...) where as the the non traffic police tend to be more helping, responding to a 999 call etc. That by separating the two might help the public respect the non traffic more and so get more help from the public?
Depends what your definition of help is. If taking uninsured drivers off the road so they don't crash into you costing you the earth is helping, or if attending fatal RTC's and then going and telling the family is helping, or if stopping criminals enjoying free use of the roads is helping, then that's exactly what they do. Traffic officers (certainly in my force) respond to 999 calls all the time. Being TAZER equipped, they are sent to many non traffic related calls. You're as likely, to have a traffic officer turn up at a report of a fight, or a domestic as any other officer round here. People are misinformed that all traffic officers do is sit on slipways, waiting for Miss Miggins to go past without her seat-belt on. IANTRAFPOL btw.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
skeggysteve said:
Mk3Spitfire said:
....
He gave an example of something that happened, and stated a lot of police turned up....
With respect Mk3 you didn't really answer the question that I sort of asked!

I said "There have been a few posts on here about lack of manpower" then told an account of lots of police/PCSO turning up at a 'domestic'.

I know all about undermanning - a few years ago I went to a house to fix a mobility scooter and the owner didn't answer the door, I went the local police station (Stamford, Lincs) and was told that there were only two officers on duty and they were both at a RTA on the A16.
I answered your question. It's one incident. It doesn't mean anything. Just because one incident is over-resourced doesn't mean anything, as it's one incident out of hundreds of thousands.

Nearly all Sky (satellite) installations go well and without fault. If the engineer messes my installation up does that alter the fact nearly all installations go well? No, of course it doesn't.

You'll have extreme examples that deviate from the norm in large enough samples.




Mk3Spitfire

2,921 posts

127 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
skeggysteve said:
Mk3Spitfire said:
....
He gave an example of something that happened, and stated a lot of police turned up....
With respect Mk3 you didn't really answer the question that I sort of asked!

I said "There have been a few posts on here about lack of manpower" then told an account of lots of police/PCSO turning up at a 'domestic'.

I know all about undermanning - a few years ago I went to a house to fix a mobility scooter and the owner didn't answer the door, I went the local police station (Stamford, Lincs) and was told that there were only two officers on duty and they were both at a RTA on the A16.
Apologies then. Maybe Liga worded it better. As he says, you gave one example. I was trying to portray that the majority of the time, we are understaffed, but such is the nature of the job, there will be times when there are more officers uncommitted than at other times. Domestics have a habit of turning sour when the partner of the person being arrested (often the caller themselves) decides to turn on the police. It is much better to have as many resources (within reason) as possible go to a call, tan send the bare minimum, and hope it doesn't kick off. PCSO's in fairness will not be of much use at a domestic, and can be taken out the equation in terms of useful resources. (Not criticizing their roll at all). When a call comes in, whatever units are in the area will usually attach themselves if not initially requested by Ops,or just gravitate to the area of a call anyway when they hear it on the radio.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
Elroy Blue said:
Derek Smith said:
I told them the norm for a late-turn - this was around 8pm - calls to their town, grade 1s and 2s, and then asked them how many officers the division had available. The lowest was over twice what was available. I then brought in the arrests and such that were self-generated.

I showed them the operational list, the outstanding jobs, the way they were prioritised and such. They were astounded, that is the only word to use. They could not understand how the police could cope with the demands. I then ran up an historic night during the summer - that was fun.
Of course you couldn't do this now as you would be 'spreading disaffection'. Cameron's Gov introduced S91 Police Act 1996 that means we are committing a criminal offence if you tell the truth about numbers. He certainly set out his stall early after coming to power.
Indeed. I bet there was no connection between the change in regs and the systematic dismantling of the police service. The facts that the voting public is concerned about the cover they get from the service, and that they might not vote tory if they knew, or that the one cabinet member who might make a stand, the HomSec, doesn't want to rock the boat because she's ambitious is just some of those spooky coincidences you hear about.

Mind you, it is not as if anyone will believe what the government puts out about the police, even the newspaper editors don't, so no one with any intelligence whatsoever will take it all in and obviously not post it on website forums.

Those of us who tell the truth, or at least our experiences, on here are derided for being apologists. And yet, of course, we don't know the extent of the political deceit.

If a serving officer tells the truth about what is being done to the service, Cameron's law punishes him or her. And yet, this government was going on about protecting whistleblowers.

skeggysteve

5,724 posts

216 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
Mk3Spitfire said:
...People are misinformed that all traffic officers do is sit on slipways, waiting for Miss Miggins to go past without her seat-belt on... IANTRAFPOL btw.
I would suggest that most of the the public only see that side of tarfpol.

Mk3Spitfire said:
Apologies then.....
No apology needed, but thanks anyway!
Also, thanks for your explanation of why, sometime, more police turn up and sometimes not.

catso

14,772 posts

266 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
340600 said:
The CPS dropping case after case for seemingly no good reason and the soft-touch sentencing when offenders do end up in court is the number one reason for people losing faith in the Police in my experience.

Nothing to do with the Police of course as mere evidence gatherers but it is soul destroying for both the Officers involved and the victims when these scrotes walk free with yet another £20 fine and a slap on the wrist when everyone knows they should be behind bars.
This, plus the efficiency of mostly automated enforcement of 'compliance' offences where stiff fines & harsh penalties are sent to thousands of people who previously considered themselves 'law-abiding'.

I appreciate that this is not necessarily down to the Police but, as it is often done in their name and by serving officers it has done much to destroy faith in the Police for people that, otherwise would have had no 'contact' with the law.

Bleedin' speed cameras and their ilk have much to answer for...

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
quotequote all
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wale...

laugh

Classy.

I'll be disappointed if that doesn't inspire a Goldie Lookin Chain hit.

He's a very blue Boy in Blue?

Would you trust that man to give Ann Widdecombe a Crime Prevention visit about her shed? Best put a padlock on it before he got there?

Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 20th August 23:53

340600

551 posts

142 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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Try not to get too excited carinaman, we wouldn't want you to go off on a tangent.

photosnob

1,339 posts

117 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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If police numbers are low they should get a few more free volunteers. I can't see why anyone would chose to do it for nothing but I met a bloke who spends his spare time being a policeman for no money. He claimed to have the same training and powers as a normal policeman so they can do the job. He even had a police ID card which he was flashing around the dinner party as if he was a celebrity.

The police mucked me around when I had my bag snatched. Said they wanted to come out and see me. Told me an approx time and 4 hours after that time and close to 11 pm called me and said they wernt coming and gave me a ref number. Crap service by anyone's book. If they had told me they didn't want to come if have gone and socialised with friends.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
photosnob said:
If police numbers are low they should get a few more free volunteers. I can't see why anyone would chose to do it for nothing but I met a bloke who spends his spare time being a policeman for no money. He claimed to have the same training and powers as a normal policeman so they can do the job.
Yes, special constables. It's been a role for a long time. Commissioners are very keen to recruit more to off-set the losses of regulars. The problem is, by the very nature of the role, they have limited skills, abilities and so it's very much a sticking-plaster solution as it takes lots of time to help and support them.

photosnob said:
He even had a police ID card which he was flashing around the dinner party as if he was a celebrity.
Unfortunately the motivations for some specials isn't what it should be, and they want the status and power. It sounds like that person may be like that. That also applies to regulars, but isn't really a good long-term motivator so is less frequent.

photosnob said:
The police mucked me around when I had my bag snatched. Said they wanted to come out and see me. Told me an approx time and 4 hours after that time and close to 11 pm called me and said they wernt coming and gave me a ref number. Crap service by anyone's book. If they had told me they didn't want to come if have gone and socialised with friends.
That's the nature of a service which isn't in control of its demand. Everything can run on schedule and then two people can go missing saying they are going to kill themselves along with a fatal road traffic collision in the space of 10 minutes, which puts all non-urgent things on hold. An earlier phone call is completely in the control of the police, though.



Cat

3,017 posts

268 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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Am I the only one whose heart sinks when a thread from months/years past suddenly bobs to the top of the forum like a turd that refuses to flush and the realisation dawns that it will now have a link to some slightly unrelated (if you're lucky) news story along with random ramblings?

Cat

tuffer

8,849 posts

266 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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Speaking with a couple of ex Forces friends over the last few days who are both now Police Officers in separate forces. Both said that staffing levels were an absolute joke, one was the only officer on duty for Manchester City center on a Friday night a few weeks back......That is pretty scary.