"What has happened to our police force?"

"What has happened to our police force?"

Author
Discussion

Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
bad company said:
But the village bobby seemed more effective to me.
I dont doubt that because he wasn't forced into doing the jobs of the NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance councillors etc.

20 years ago a bobby would go to a domestic, tell everyone to grow up and leave. 10 minutes tops.... now they have to separate both parties, carry out a risk assessment, ask the caller 27 home office approved questions, grade them standard medium or high, carry out intelligence checks on all parties, call social services if there are kids there, create a reference number and then write all of that up into a report and submit it to their supervisor. That's at least 2 hours work.... go figure.

The police service of 20 years ago is totally different. The village bobby won't have been doing anything other than dealing with minor occurrences such as the incidents you mentioned.

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Greendubber said:
I dont doubt that because he wasn't forced into doing the jobs of the NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance councillors etc.

20 years ago a bobby would go to a domestic, tell everyone to grow up and leave. 10 minutes tops.... now they have to separate both parties, carry out a risk assessment, ask the caller 27 home office approved questions, grade them standard medium or high, carry out intelligence checks on all parties, call social services if there are kids there, create a reference number and then write all of that up into a report and submit it to their supervisor. That's at least 2 hours work.... go figure.

The police service of 20 years ago is totally different. The village bobby won't have been doing anything other than dealing with minor occurrences such as the incidents you mentioned.
How much service have you got ?

I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.

It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.

The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.



Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 26th August 20:28

Billyray911

1,072 posts

203 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
carinaman said:
I hope you're well Red 4. I guess I should back you up.

I may have embarrassed two separate officers on separate occasions with local knowledge. Once was when an officer was trying to ingratiate themselves with another officer. I knew the officer had their facts wrong as I was passing at the time of the incident they were getting confused with and gave way to the ARV (black LR product) at one of those convenient urban traffic calming pinch points, and then a few minutes after I saw the marked car passing with someone involved in that incident in the passenger seat. I guess they were doing a street witness search and/or dropping them home.

The other time was when an officer said to a 'vulnerable' MoP that they'd not heard of an infamous perp. That could have been due to the fact that going by their FaceBork ID they'd have been about ten years old when that big fish in a small pond was deservedly busted. As far as I know they're still inside.

Going on that officer's FaceBork profile, although it's 'locked down' they seem to be rather close to a colleague that was there at the time when I helped them out with my local knowledge. So I may have put their nose out in front of two members of the public, and three of their colleagues, one of which they may have been trying to impress or in a relationship with.

I am sure they wouldn't have been in a relationship then what with superiority and rank and that Gargan stuff at Avon & Somerset.

Kids eh? Give 'em the Internet and they think they know everything. wink

Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 26th August 20:04
confused

Mk3Spitfire

2,921 posts

127 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Billyray911 said:
confused
You'll get used to it.

singlecoil

33,313 posts

245 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Billyray911 said:
confused
Best way to cope is not to get drawn in, just skip over his stuff and you'll be ok.

Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
How much service have you got ?

I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.

It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.

The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.



Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 26th August 20:28
For a verbal argument only?


9 for me, other family member has 17 and my old man went with over 30.

Domestics have changed in my time, when I joined no dash or non crime numbers for a verbal argument with a report to say no assaults have happened which was the example I gave. It was written off with 'no complaints, advice given up until a few years back.

Mk3Spitfire

2,921 posts

127 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Agree with Green. Definitely more emphasis on them now. Dash is a recent thing, but domestics have definitely become more scrutinised. In some cases, rightly so, but I also agree that some "domestics" don't even warrant a police response IMO, let alone recording etc.

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
Greendubber said:
I dont doubt that because he wasn't forced into doing the jobs of the NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance councillors etc.

20 years ago a bobby would go to a domestic, tell everyone to grow up and leave. 10 minutes tops.... now they have to separate both parties, carry out a risk assessment, ask the caller 27 home office approved questions, grade them standard medium or high, carry out intelligence checks on all parties, call social services if there are kids there, create a reference number and then write all of that up into a report and submit it to their supervisor. That's at least 2 hours work.... go figure.

The police service of 20 years ago is totally different. The village bobby won't have been doing anything other than dealing with minor occurrences such as the incidents you mentioned.
How much service have you got ?

I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.

It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.

The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.

I was a neighbourhood officer from 1988 to 2000 and dont recall dealing with many domestics. They were, in the main dealt with by response officers. obviously if I was on I'd wander along and give a hand. DV forms and risk assessments were just coming in around the time I finished on that beat. Much more complex now. Mandatory RA screens on crime reports plus referrals to specialist units plus child screens all need completing. Policy demands robust action be taken and generally one or both may be arrested if any assaults are alleged. Back in the dark old days of the 1970's we never touched domestics. We'd attend, Quieten things down. Refer both parties to a solicitor or clerk of court to draw their own personal summonses against the other then leave. The incident would then be subject of an occurence book entry back at the nick.


Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 26th August 20:28

Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Mk3Spitfire said:
Agree with Green. Definitely more emphasis on them now. Dash is a recent thing, but domestics have definitely become more scrutinised. In some cases, rightly so, but I also agree that some "domestics" don't even warrant a police response IMO, let alone recording etc.
My old man nearly fell over when I told him we had to raise a report for a non crime incident "so you do a report because nothing happened"....yep......"the jobs gone to st"

I managed to get of response recently so my domestic days are over thank god.

Mk3Spitfire

2,921 posts

127 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Greendubber said:
I managed to get of response recently so my domestic days are over thank god.
A LOT of people are following suit. I've considered it, but can't stand the thought of CID, Traffic or NPT!

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Greendubber said:
Mk3Spitfire said:
Agree with Green. Definitely more emphasis on them now. Dash is a recent thing, but domestics have definitely become more scrutinised. In some cases, rightly so, but I also agree that some "domestics" don't even warrant a police response IMO, let alone recording etc.
My old man nearly fell over when I told him we had to raise a report for a non crime incident "so you do a report because nothing happened"....yep......"the jobs gone to st"

I managed to get of response recently so my domestic days are over thank god.
You do a report because nothings happened....yet. Something has happened otherwise you wouldnt have been sent. In the old days we just ignored them. Kids and family members suffered abuse for years until someone was badly hurt or killed. Not gone to st at all in the case of domestics

Billyray911

1,072 posts

203 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
singlecoil said:
Billyray911 said:
confused
Best way to cope is not to get drawn in, just skip over his stuff and you'll be ok.
Yup.I just read and have a bit of a chuckle.Lifes too short to get drawn into these things!

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Greendubber said:
For a verbal argument only?


9 for me, other family member has 17 and my old man went with over 30.

Domestics have changed in my time, when I joined no dash or non crime numbers for a verbal argument with a report to say no assaults have happened which was the example I gave. It was written off with 'no complaints, advice given up until a few years back.
It depends on the verbal argument - it was rare to attend a domestic where there was not, at least, a breach of the peace.

If there were no offences disclosed then there was usually still an entry (arse covering).

The difference these days is that there are less cops to attend more incidents. The numbers per shift have declined.


Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
It depends on the verbal argument - it was rare to attend a domestic where there was not, at least, a breach of the peace.

If there were no offences disclosed then there was usually still an entry (arse covering).

The difference these days is that there are less cops to attend more incidents. The numbers per shift have declined.

my old crew used to parade 40, they're putting put 17 now....shocking.

Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Bigends said:
You do a report because nothings happened....yet. Something has happened otherwise you wouldnt have been sent. In the old days we just ignored them. Kids and family members suffered abuse for years until someone was badly hurt or killed. Not gone to st at all in the case of domestics
Yes an argument has happened, never had an argument with your Mrs? Neighbour phones in, we turn up and the occupants tell us they had an argument over what to watch on the TV. No signs of fighting just raised voices.

I then have to do reports to say nothing has happened other than an argument which most of the population have on a regular basis.

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
singlecoil said:
Billyray911 said:
confused
Best way to cope is not to get drawn in, just skip over his stuff and you'll be ok.
I was trying to give Red 4 some assistance by showing how local knowledge picked up first hand from being there at the time, or reading about it in the local press could be useful.

FaceBork? Well Professional Standards tell officers to 'lock down' their social media profiles and local newspapers use FOI trawling to get content sometimes report 'XX police officers reprimanded over last 5 years for Social Media infractions'.

I shouldn't generalise about all young officers as the other officer couldn't be found on FaceBork so one of them has the sense not to be on there or has really locked down their FaceBork presence.

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Greendubber said:
my old crew used to parade 40, they're putting put 17 now....shocking.
It's the same everywhere.

They don't even materialise for pursuits these days.

It's a shame because cops will get injured more often. Patrols are not available to be deployed, never mind back-up at jobs.

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
You do a report because nothings happened....yet. Something has happened otherwise you wouldnt have been sent. In the old days we just ignored them. Kids and family members suffered abuse for years until someone was badly hurt or killed. Not gone to st at all in the case of domestics
Yes an argument has happened, never had an argument with your Mrs? Neighbour phones in, we turn up and the occupants tell us they had an argument over what to watch on the TV. No signs of fighting just raised voices.
Couldnt agree more - but do you know whats going to happen after youve left? Thats when the wife gets the smack in the mouth and cant call Police. At least by submitting a non crime DV report gets the address on the DV unit radar.

Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Bigends said:
ouldnt agree more - but do you know whats going to happen after youve left? Thats when the wife gets the smack in the mouth and cant call Police. At least by submitting a non crime DV report gets the address on the DV unit radar.
Non crime numbers are just filed now, gone are the days when they were all looked at, assessed and then parties contacted for follow up contact plans. The DV unit are swamped dealing with the high risk DV prisoners to do any non crime related roles. People on bail coming out of their ears and a pile of reports covering any inch of desk space.

Horrific

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Tuesday 26th August 2014
quotequote all
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
ouldnt agree more - but do you know whats going to happen after youve left? Thats when the wife gets the smack in the mouth and cant call Police. At least by submitting a non crime DV report gets the address on the DV unit radar.
Non crime numbers are just filed now, gone are the days when they were all looked at, assessed and then parties contacted for follow up contact plans. The DV unit are swamped dealing with the high risk DV prisoners to do any non crime related roles. People on bail coming out of their ears and a pile of reports covering any inch of desk space.

Horrific
Not in my force - weve just had two dv murders - focuses the mind!!