"What has happened to our police force?"
Discussion
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
ouldnt agree more - but do you know whats going to happen after youve left? Thats when the wife gets the smack in the mouth and cant call Police. At least by submitting a non crime DV report gets the address on the DV unit radar.
Non crime numbers are just filed now, gone are the days when they were all looked at, assessed and then parties contacted for follow up contact plans. The DV unit are swamped dealing with the high risk DV prisoners to do any non crime related roles. People on bail coming out of their ears and a pile of reports covering any inch of desk space. Horrific
Greendubber said:
For a verbal argument only?
9 for me, other family member has 17 and my old man went with over 30.
Domestics have changed in my time, when I joined no dash or non crime numbers for a verbal argument with a report to say no assaults have happened which was the example I gave. It was written off with 'no complaints, advice given up until a few years back.
I 40 y joined ears ago and for the first 12/15 a simple AQOA, NCPA was the norm for a non-arrest domestic - all quiet on arrival, no cause for police action.9 for me, other family member has 17 and my old man went with over 30.
Domestics have changed in my time, when I joined no dash or non crime numbers for a verbal argument with a report to say no assaults have happened which was the example I gave. It was written off with 'no complaints, advice given up until a few years back.
When I was first promoted inspector an officer would give their name and contact number to all victims. If there was an injury or serious threat and no prisoner then I as inspector would normally attend, often a day or two later, and give my name. There would be a check made a week or so later by the PC, depending on shift. We thought all that rather radical.
There was a change about 1997/8 where officers were told they had to arrest the man in a domestic dispute where there was an assault. My PCs said that they reckoned that this caused some women not to phone for police and they were frightened the bloke would blame them. So we were called by neighbours more often.
I've ejected the occasional bloke from premises with the threat of an arrest if seen in the locality.
I'm a full supporter of the more proactive methods but they do take much more time and it has not been funded.
Red 4 said:
How much service have you got ?
I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
this was required in 1994? I joined in 1997 and unless there was some serious injury it was generally "go and see your solicitor in the morning police don't deal with domestics or common assault"I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 26th August 20:28
Its changed a lot now though meaning you have to justify why you didn't make an arrest at a domestic. In my opinion a lot of people get arrested to prevent a breach of the peace when its unlawful, mainly because of organisational pressure and the fact cops are scared not to in case it all goes wrong then all of a sudden whatever happens is their fault.
ED209 said:
Red 4 said:
How much service have you got ?
I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
this was required in 1994? I joined in 1997 and unless there was some serious injury it was generally "go and see your solicitor in the morning police don't deal with domestics or common assault"I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 26th August 20:28
Its changed a lot now though meaning you have to justify why you didn't make an arrest at a domestic. In my opinion a lot of people get arrested to prevent a breach of the peace when its unlawful, mainly because of organisational pressure and the fact cops are scared not to in case it all goes wrong then all of a sudden whatever happens is their fault.
Bigends said:
ED209 said:
Red 4 said:
How much service have you got ?
I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
this was required in 1994? I joined in 1997 and unless there was some serious injury it was generally "go and see your solicitor in the morning police don't deal with domestics or common assault"I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 26th August 20:28
Its changed a lot now though meaning you have to justify why you didn't make an arrest at a domestic. In my opinion a lot of people get arrested to prevent a breach of the peace when its unlawful, mainly because of organisational pressure and the fact cops are scared not to in case it all goes wrong then all of a sudden whatever happens is their fault.
In my experience its probably the area of of offending that does get recorded in line with NCRS.
ED209 said:
Bigends said:
ED209 said:
Red 4 said:
How much service have you got ?
I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
this was required in 1994? I joined in 1997 and unless there was some serious injury it was generally "go and see your solicitor in the morning police don't deal with domestics or common assault"I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 26th August 20:28
Its changed a lot now though meaning you have to justify why you didn't make an arrest at a domestic. In my opinion a lot of people get arrested to prevent a breach of the peace when its unlawful, mainly because of organisational pressure and the fact cops are scared not to in case it all goes wrong then all of a sudden whatever happens is their fault.
In my experience its probably the area of of offending that does get recorded in line with NCRS.
Bigends said:
ED209 said:
Bigends said:
ED209 said:
Red 4 said:
How much service have you got ?
I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
this was required in 1994? I joined in 1997 and unless there was some serious injury it was generally "go and see your solicitor in the morning police don't deal with domestics or common assault"I joined in 1994 (20 years ago). The police were acting as NHS, social care, teachers, marriage guidance (and much more) back then too.
It was not as simple as telling everyone to grow up and leaving. Domestic violence reports were required as a minimum. PNC checks/ intel reports on the "offenders" were standard/ the norm, as was contacting social services if required. More often than not, someone was arrested.
The job hasn't really changed but the (extra) paperwork is required to tick boxes and also cover your arse.
Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 26th August 20:28
Its changed a lot now though meaning you have to justify why you didn't make an arrest at a domestic. In my opinion a lot of people get arrested to prevent a breach of the peace when its unlawful, mainly because of organisational pressure and the fact cops are scared not to in case it all goes wrong then all of a sudden whatever happens is their fault.
In my experience its probably the area of of offending that does get recorded in line with NCRS.
is one of only four forces where HMIC was so concerned
about the scale and extent of the failings in delivering a service to victims of
domestic abuse, that following our initial inspection in November 2013,
immediate remedial action was required. The force provided an action plan,
outlining what it is doing to address our concerns, and HMIC re-inspected the
force in February 2014. Our re-inspection found that little had been done to
improve the service provided to victims and serious concerns remained about
the force’s ability to tackle domestic abuse in the count
Derek Smith said:
I 40 y joined ears ago and for the first 12/15 a simple AQOA, NCPA was the norm for a non-arrest domestic - all quiet on arrival, no cause for police action.
When I was first promoted inspector an officer would give their name and contact number to all victims. If there was an injury or serious threat and no prisoner then I as inspector would normally attend, often a day or two later, and give my name. There would be a check made a week or so later by the PC, depending on shift. We thought all that rather radical.
There was a change about 1997/8 where officers were told they had to arrest the man in a domestic dispute where there was an assault. My PCs said that they reckoned that this caused some women not to phone for police and they were frightened the bloke would blame them. So we were called by neighbours more often.
I've ejected the occasional bloke from premises with the threat of an arrest if seen in the locality.
I'm a full supporter of the more proactive methods but they do take much more time and it has not been funded.
Genuine question. What about if a bloke calls saying that the wife has hit him? When I was first promoted inspector an officer would give their name and contact number to all victims. If there was an injury or serious threat and no prisoner then I as inspector would normally attend, often a day or two later, and give my name. There would be a check made a week or so later by the PC, depending on shift. We thought all that rather radical.
There was a change about 1997/8 where officers were told they had to arrest the man in a domestic dispute where there was an assault. My PCs said that they reckoned that this caused some women not to phone for police and they were frightened the bloke would blame them. So we were called by neighbours more often.
I've ejected the occasional bloke from premises with the threat of an arrest if seen in the locality.
I'm a full supporter of the more proactive methods but they do take much more time and it has not been funded.
photosnob said:
Derek Smith said:
I 40 y joined ears ago and for the first 12/15 a simple AQOA, NCPA was the norm for a non-arrest domestic - all quiet on arrival, no cause for police action.
When I was first promoted inspector an officer would give their name and contact number to all victims. If there was an injury or serious threat and no prisoner then I as inspector would normally attend, often a day or two later, and give my name. There would be a check made a week or so later by the PC, depending on shift. We thought all that rather radical.
There was a change about 1997/8 where officers were told they had to arrest the man in a domestic dispute where there was an assault. My PCs said that they reckoned that this caused some women not to phone for police and they were frightened the bloke would blame them. So we were called by neighbours more often.
I've ejected the occasional bloke from premises with the threat of an arrest if seen in the locality.
I'm a full supporter of the more proactive methods but they do take much more time and it has not been funded.
Genuine question. What about if a bloke calls saying that the wife has hit him? When I was first promoted inspector an officer would give their name and contact number to all victims. If there was an injury or serious threat and no prisoner then I as inspector would normally attend, often a day or two later, and give my name. There would be a check made a week or so later by the PC, depending on shift. We thought all that rather radical.
There was a change about 1997/8 where officers were told they had to arrest the man in a domestic dispute where there was an assault. My PCs said that they reckoned that this caused some women not to phone for police and they were frightened the bloke would blame them. So we were called by neighbours more often.
I've ejected the occasional bloke from premises with the threat of an arrest if seen in the locality.
I'm a full supporter of the more proactive methods but they do take much more time and it has not been funded.
Domestics: The issue is the lack of finesse and 'catch-all' with assessing risk. Although trusting officers to do this correctly is another thing. We should go to the nth degree when there's real risk to someone. However, when step-son has got drunk and sent a message on Facebook to his half-step-Granddad (or whatever the most tenuous domestic definition and link is) then we really don't need to be doing a comprehensive risk-assessment per se as it's a waste of limited time.
Foot patrol is unlikely to detect any crime - but can provide reassurance for the public and the crime prevention value cant be measured. Certainly not a waste of time unless all youre interested in is detecting crime.I did qualify it with "the way the modern service works". Meeting a vast, spread out demand via people calling the police is the most fundamental thing to be done. You have to have your resources mobile in order to achieve this. It can be reassuring but that's a rose-tinted view, as rationally, having officers able to quickly respond to incidents should be more reassuring.
Bigends said:
bad company said:
La Liga said:
Foot patrol, other than for events and in town centres, is a waste of time, too with the way the modern service works.
Can't agree with that.Bigends said:
No difference at all -an assaults an assault
Okay - I only wondered if there was a difference in guidance. I've known a few blokes who have been arrested after verbal argument and the couple pushing each other. The blokes were not allowed to return home, or even get there stuff without having police present, nor see the kids. I was genuinely interested if the reaction (or guidance) would be the same if a guy called saying his wife shouted at him, he was scared and in fear. Sorry if that sounds misogynistic, it wasn't the intention. La Liga said:
did qualify it with "the way the modern service works". Meeting a vast, spread out demand via people calling the police is the most fundamental thing to be done. You have to have your resources mobile in order to achieve this. It can be reassuring but that's a rose-tinted view, as rationally, having officers able to quickly respond to incidents should be more reassuring.
The public want both - it's a perception thing.In a perfect world (with twice the numbers of police officers) they'd have it.
The neighbourhood/ response idea came from "Problem Oriented Policing" which was developed in San Francisco and found its way over here in the late 90's.
Sadly, the numbers of police officers did not increase much which is what is required to make the idea really work.
PCSOs, in my opinion, fill a bit of the gap.
photosnob said:
Bigends said:
No difference at all -an assaults an assault
Okay - I only wondered if there was a difference in guidance. I've known a few blokes who have been arrested after verbal argument and the couple pushing each other. The blokes were not allowed to return home, or even get there stuff without having police present, nor see the kids. I was genuinely interested if the reaction (or guidance) would be the same if a guy called saying his wife shouted at him, he was scared and in fear. Sorry if that sounds misogynistic, it wasn't the intention. Bigends said:
From a recording point of view -its just another assault.However from a policy point of view I think procedure still errs on the side of women and children and the male party would be the one to be moved out rather than them
Thanks. I don't blame the Police at all, they only have to do what they are told. But that is awful. Get assaulted and get turfed out of your home. My current job it delivering and collecting car. Few weeks ago I had to collect a car that had been on loan from a police HQ.
The HQ had a very posh reception area, big tv on the wall, comfy seating etc., staffed by G4S, very helpful staff who after phoning the person that had 'loaned' the car pointed me to the workshop.
Again more helpful staff, found the car and left me to it.
Few points:
Not once at the HQ did I see a police officer, the place was staffed by civilians/G4S.
Do the police need such fancy reception?
The workshop had inside about 20 police motorbikes and outside I counted 50+ cars and vans. All the bikes were OK but some of the outside stuff was obviously broke. But most of it wasn't.
So how come the police are short of money?
As an outsider it just seems that the money is being spent in the wrong places, what do the BiB on here think?
Top of the range X5 is a very nice car
The HQ had a very posh reception area, big tv on the wall, comfy seating etc., staffed by G4S, very helpful staff who after phoning the person that had 'loaned' the car pointed me to the workshop.
Again more helpful staff, found the car and left me to it.
Few points:
Not once at the HQ did I see a police officer, the place was staffed by civilians/G4S.
Do the police need such fancy reception?
The workshop had inside about 20 police motorbikes and outside I counted 50+ cars and vans. All the bikes were OK but some of the outside stuff was obviously broke. But most of it wasn't.
So how come the police are short of money?
As an outsider it just seems that the money is being spent in the wrong places, what do the BiB on here think?
Top of the range X5 is a very nice car
Bigends said:
From a recording point of view -its just another assault.However from a policy point of view I think procedure still errs on the side of women and children and the male party would be the one to be moved out rather than them
Sorry BigEnds but I have to disagree again. If I turn up to a domestic, and it's the female that's the aggressor, it's her that's coming in. Unless there's extreme circumstances, the sex of the offender is completely irrelevant.Mk3Spitfire said:
Bigends said:
From a recording point of view -its just another assault.However from a policy point of view I think procedure still errs on the side of women and children and the male party would be the one to be moved out rather than them
Sorry BigEnds but I have to disagree again. If I turn up to a domestic, and it's the female that's the aggressor, it's her that's coming in. Unless there's extreme circumstances, the sex of the offender is completely irrelevant.Bigends said:
Can only comment on recording-only. Thought that may have been the case-only in the case of no arrest - I didnt make that clear - my fault
Ok I see. Yes, when it's just getting one person out the house for the night it's sometimes more practicable for blokey to take it on the chin.skeggysteve said:
My current job it delivering and collecting car. Few weeks ago I had to collect a car that had been on loan from a police HQ.
The HQ had a very posh reception area, big tv on the wall, comfy seating etc., staffed by G4S, very helpful staff who after phoning the person that had 'loaned' the car pointed me to the workshop.
Again more helpful staff, found the car and left me to it.
Few points:
Not once at the HQ did I see a police officer, the place was staffed by civilians/G4S.
Do the police need such fancy reception?
The workshop had inside about 20 police motorbikes and outside I counted 50+ cars and vans. All the bikes were OK but some of the outside stuff was obviously broke. But most of it wasn't.
So how come the police are short of money?
As an outsider it just seems that the money is being spent in the wrong places, what do the BiB on here think?
Top of the range X5 is a very nice car
Give that man a cigar.The HQ had a very posh reception area, big tv on the wall, comfy seating etc., staffed by G4S, very helpful staff who after phoning the person that had 'loaned' the car pointed me to the workshop.
Again more helpful staff, found the car and left me to it.
Few points:
Not once at the HQ did I see a police officer, the place was staffed by civilians/G4S.
Do the police need such fancy reception?
The workshop had inside about 20 police motorbikes and outside I counted 50+ cars and vans. All the bikes were OK but some of the outside stuff was obviously broke. But most of it wasn't.
So how come the police are short of money?
As an outsider it just seems that the money is being spent in the wrong places, what do the BiB on here think?
Top of the range X5 is a very nice car
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