"What has happened to our police force?"

"What has happened to our police force?"

Author
Discussion

Elroy Blue

8,686 posts

191 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Yep. Another one of Cameron's highly successful actions implementing Police 'reform'. rolleyes

Dibble

12,923 posts

239 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Elroy Blue said:
Mental health takes up a staggering amount of Police time. Although this may be a figment of my imagination because we're apparently all out with speed guns persecuting motorists.
If it's not mental health, it's "missing" kids. In my force a few days ago there was an incident where two kids had gone "missing" from a "secure" care home in an adjoining county. When they'd run out of money and got bored, they presented themselves to an officer. The home refused to send, or arrange for, staff to come and collect the children. So of course, it was the Police (two officers) that had to do a 150+ mile found trip to return them to the home. So that's 2 officers (out of a total of 5) unavailable for pretty much the entire tour.

Red Devil

13,055 posts

207 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Dibble - why did the police have to do the job that those responsible for the care of the runaways refused to undertake? Could they have refused? What would have happened if they did? Is there really no mechanism to compel the appropriate agency (which imo is NOT the police in that case) to stop ducking the issue.

Frankly it's a ridiculous waste of police time and resources. If the Home Secretary is serious about reform she could start right there. Lock her and Jeremy Hunt in a room (without tea and biscuits) until they come up with a sensible action plan.

XCP

16,876 posts

227 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Not wishing to speak for Dibble but I suspect that if the police had refused and some misfortune had befallen the little darlings they would have never heard the end of it. One can imagine the hysterical headlines in the Mail, and there would probably be a thread on this site.

Red Devil

13,055 posts

207 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Doubtless it would suit the agenda of the Daily Wail but I was more interested in what official sanction, if any, might ensue. It really is time those charged with looking after people with mental health and similar issues were made to face up to and accept their responsibilities and not expect the police to sweep up after them when they fail to do so.

XCP

16,876 posts

227 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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The IPCC would have got involved and officers would be disciplined. No doubt about it. One wonders, in contrast, what sanctions those who should have been in charge of the children would face.

Eclassy

1,201 posts

121 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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In as much as I dislike the police, the one thing I completely disagree with is the massive reduction in their budgets. I went into a police station recently to give a statement and there was only one PC in the building.

I know politicians are completely out of touch with reality but who thought it wise to reduce police numbers for an ever increasing population?

Surely any sensilble government knows healthcare, judiciary (courts, bailiffs) and policing should be protected/ringfenced. Trident, payments to Royals, foreign aid to undeserving countries e.t.c should go first.

Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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The latest ideas here are closing nicks and posting officers in libraries and other council buildings to make the police more accessible. In reality its to save estate costs....so even the buildings aren't safe now.

The days of police officers in a police station are gone... need to see an officer?, good luck.

Dibble

12,923 posts

239 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Red Devil said:
Dibble - why did the police have to do the job that those responsible for the care of the runaways refused to undertake? Could they have refused? What would have happened if they did? Is there really no mechanism to compel the appropriate agency (which imo is NOT the police in that case) to stop ducking the issue.

Frankly it's a ridiculous waste of police time and resources. If the Home Secretary is serious about reform she could start right there. Lock her and Jeremy Hunt in a room (without tea and biscuits) until they come up with a sensible action plan.
Because unfortunately by that the point, the police were "in possession" of the youngsters... Duty of care... Yada yada...

If the police had said "Right, we've told you where they are, you sort it" and ill fortune had befallen them, as XCP says, it wouldn't have been the care home/agency being the scapegoat. And most police officers do actually want to help people, so abandoning kids, no matter how "streetwise" they are (or think they are), is a no-no.

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Greendubber said:
The latest ideas here are closing nicks and posting officers in libraries and other council buildings to make the police more accessible. In reality its to save estate costs....so even the buildings aren't safe now.

The days of police officers in a police station are gone... need to see an officer?, good luck.
Libraries? Do those who make these decisions know the likely behaviour of some of those who want to see police officers?

And where are they going to run major incidents? Oh! I forgot, all that is needed nowadays is a cupboard.

When I joined the service I'd meet retired officers and they'd say how lucky I was as the job was much harder in their day. And this went on and on - unjustifiably in many cases - as each level of service retired. But retired officers nowadays tell the current lot how lucky we were, and we were understaffed.

Boy, am I glad I left when I did.

There's never been an anti-police PM before. We've had incompetent HomSecs of course - when not? I was serving under Blunkett, now there was a prime candidate of the worst ever. Marionette May is not stupid, nor is she incompetent: she hasn't got those excuses. She's just ambitious, and that is the biggest indictment of all.


Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Im keen to see how they will deal with all the RSO's that come in for documentation and people answering bail...

"Answering bail?, 2nd floor, go through childrens fiction and over towards the sci-fi section and the police stations a little table on your left"

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Usget said:
How have our politicians come from being a force that was respected throughout the entire country and against which few would have dared breathe a word to being a body of men and women regarded as useless at best and corrupt at worst?
How have our police come from being a force that was respected throughout the entire country and against which few would have dared breathe a word to being a body of men and women regarded as useless at best and corrupt at worst?



XCP

16,876 posts

227 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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REALIST123 said:
How have our police come from being a force that was respected throughout the entire country and against which few would have dared breathe a word to being a body of men and women regarded as useless at best and corrupt at worst?
When was this time when the police were respected throughout the entire country? Unless we know the time scale we are talking about, it is hard to answer the question.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Regardless of the past, are they respected now? If not, why not?

XCP

16,876 posts

227 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Rovinghawk said:
Regardless of the past, are they respected now? If not, why not?
Depends who you speak to I would suggest. But without knowing when any so called decline started it is hard to know why it started. My personal view is that the police today are more professional than they have ever been, which is why I would like to ask those who claim a fall in standards what baseline they are working from.

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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REALIST123 said:
How have our police come from being a force that was respected throughout the entire country and against which few would have dared breathe a word to being a body of men and women regarded as useless at best and corrupt at worst?
You fell for the myth of the police being respected throughout the country. Never happened but as it was in the papers people took this on board. It was a good myth as it could be told to recruits, suggesting that they had a lot to live up to.

Now, of course, we read in the papers and on TV about how dreadful the police are. And people repeat this without any real idea of whether it is right on not.

The repetition of Hillsborough is a case in point. People talk about the respect that the police had in the old days and that often takes in the 1980s.

Now they are useless and corrupt, of course they are, it says in in the DM.

The police were part of the organisation of three armed raids in and around the City of London in the middle, late 70s. It would not, could not, happen nowadays.

A cousin of mine became an aide to CID in the Mets around the early 70s and was told to arrest a specific person for 'doors or cars'. i.e. go to court with the sole evidence that he had seen the chap trying car doors or doors to premises. The person picked on would be a CRO and would have to accept it. Real respect. The courts knew it was all corrupt and did nothing about it. My cousin refused and was returned to uniform.

Look up Challenor and tell me that this could happen today.

So ask yourself why the police are seen, by you I assume, as incompetent or corrupt.

The recording of interviews and CCTV in the cell blocks was supported by the vast majority of police, so why should they want this if, as everyone knows, they are so corrupt.

I had a chap in my cell who believed that he would be beaten just because he had been nicked. They know it won't happen nowadays.

And so, I bet, do most of those who eternally criticise the police.

Corrupt? You have no idea what corrupt really means and what killed in it the service to a great extent was the officers themselves.

Some other countries have been lauded as so much better than the England/Welsh forces. Yeah, right. No corruption there. To prove it their discipline and complaints units hardly have anything to do.

We hear glib comments about closing ranks yet officers are frequently the main prosecution witnesses in discipline.

Respected throughout the entire country? I suppose such a misconception is a credit to you in a way. You would, I assume, not have had dealings with the police in those days, whenever they were.

Yet this rubbish is repeated as if it was fact.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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XCP said:
Depends who you speak to I would suggest. But without knowing when any so called decline started it is hard to know why it started. My personal view is that the police today are more professional than they have ever been, which is why I would like to ask those who claim a fall in standards what baseline they are working from.
I'm too young to answer your question re 1980.

Instead I'll ask this: when wrongdoing is discovered, is the offender ostracised & expelled or is he supported? What effect will this have on reputation?

Who me ?

7,455 posts

211 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Dave Hedgehog said:
that increase is mostly from speeders and people who have not paid there council tax or tv licence fee
Little incentive to jail for speeding. No cash for local SCP economy to gain from SAC.
Can't say I've heard or seen any mention in press about jailed non payers of council tax for a while.
TV licence evaders are chased by a private company, usually with a lot of heated threatening letters about how evil they are. My daughter's house was empty for a couple of years and despite returning some as house not occupied, we got the full quota starting with "you are a naughty person" ones to "we will break your door down because we know you are using a set without paying" several times. Occasionally a TV bloke MIGHT Appear. Jail would be for not paying the fine .
I'd suggest individual officers are getting fed up with hands tied over matters and criminals treated lightly. Oh ,there's also lack of manpower .
Localy I know of one case a few years ago where a teenage one man crime wave could be arrested ,taken down to be charged and back home before the officer had finished the paperwork . No remand in custody, till the affected residents used the political clout of the County man(on police committee ) and MP to ask the head magistrate WHY.
I've seen the lack of manpower in non action. Not so far away from me lives a little drug baron . Every man & dog locally knows about him ,but when I asked why no action I found lack of complaints. I also know he gets his car turned over regularly so those on the ground suspect. A bit of surveillance might get a result, but there's a distinct lack of manpower.

XCP

16,876 posts

227 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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Rovinghawk said:
I'm too young to answer your question re 1980.

Instead I'll ask this: when wrongdoing is discovered, is the offender ostracised & expelled or is he supported? What effect will this have on reputation?
I don't know what you mean by 'wrongdoing', and 'ostracised and expelled'. In my opinion the discipline system now is much more rigorous than it used to be, if that is what you are referring to. Standards of behaviour are also much much higher.
I can recall officers getting away with offences, eg drink driving and causing an accident, that would result in dismissal today.
I can also recall a colleague of mine caught not just drinking in a pub on duty in uniform but helping himself behind the bar, and serving customers. He was fined £60. He'd be sacked today.

Eclassy

1,201 posts

121 months

Monday 2nd June 2014
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@ Derek

CCTV footage sometimes miracoulously disappear when whats on it isnt favourable. Remember JCdM and the tapes at Stockwell?

A friend has been waiting on the police for a SAR for just under 80 days now. Section 6 of the DPA allows a maximum of 40 days, no ifs, no buts.

How does one respect the police who should be upholding the law when they are delibrately breaking laws themselves?