Dual liner speed limit grey area
Discussion
wessexrfc said:
We have filled out a form, not sure what it was called.
The s.172 form is the one where you nominate the driver, sign it and return it within 28 days.If this has not yet been returned, I'd be inclined to print a copy of the DPV definition from Page 1, take some pictures of your vehicle and staple these and an accompanying letter pointing out the facts to the s.172 form itself. I'd also write in bold letters on the s.172 'Please see attached'.
This would put the ball squarely in the SCP's court and will force them to decide whether to 1) quietly drop the matter or 2), proceed with the offer of a fixed penalty / speed awareness course.
SS2. said:
wessexrfc said:
We have filled out a form, not sure what it was called.
The s.172 form is the one where you nominate the driver, sign it and return it within 28 days.If this has not yet been returned, I'd be inclined to print a copy of the DPV definition from Page 1, take some pictures of your vehicle and staple these and an accompanying letter pointing out the facts to the s.172 form itself. I'd also write in bold letters on the s.172 'Please see attached'.
This would put the ball squarely in the SCP's court and will force them to decide whether to 1) quietly drop the matter or 2), proceed with the offer of a fixed penalty / speed awareness course.
One other thing OP. May I suggest that you have the conversation with DVLA and ask them about the issue of registering a vehicle as a DPV.
I suspect they can't. It may be that they don't even have the category on their system.
Personally would be most grateful if you could do that and let us know their answer. PM is ok if don't want to post up in public. Would be of assistance in my discussion with my MP.
I suspect they can't. It may be that they don't even have the category on their system.
Personally would be most grateful if you could do that and let us know their answer. PM is ok if don't want to post up in public. Would be of assistance in my discussion with my MP.
wessexrfc said:
Driving my Vito dual liner the other day on the A30 headed towards Cornwall, I had the cruse set at about 73mph and noticed two police cars slowly catching, one passed, no problem, I caught up with a lorry and pulled out to overtake, the second car then put his blues on, thinking he's on an emergency call I accelerated passed the lorry and pulled in. The car then switched off his lights and crused passed with the passanger waving six fingers at me(dispite the fact I was in Cornwall, he had to use two hands 
) I gave him seven and carried on at the same speed.
So I set off to find the info, was it a myth that although I have five seats, its still a van and therefore restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway (a law that to me has no logic) and this is what I found after some digging and is an answer from someone else's question:
Where there are windows, seats and seat belts behind the driver’s seat our understanding is that the enforcement authorities will assume that the vehicle is primarily used for carrying passengers rather than goods. A passenger vehicle with no more than 8 passenger seats can travel at the same speed as a car.
My van carries my family and also some tools, I use it for work and pleasure. I could use a car but prefer the flexibility, when needed, of a van. Has anyone a better answer???
I haven't read any other posts but from 17 years back I recall the term 'car derived vans'. Simple in them days, mini vans, fiesta vans, corsa vans etc. now not so simple. Berlingo? Was a van first, now a car...! Transit connect.....based on fiesta fusion, or was the fusion based on connect? ) I gave him seven and carried on at the same speed. So I set off to find the info, was it a myth that although I have five seats, its still a van and therefore restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway (a law that to me has no logic) and this is what I found after some digging and is an answer from someone else's question:
Where there are windows, seats and seat belts behind the driver’s seat our understanding is that the enforcement authorities will assume that the vehicle is primarily used for carrying passengers rather than goods. A passenger vehicle with no more than 8 passenger seats can travel at the same speed as a car.
My van carries my family and also some tools, I use it for work and pleasure. I could use a car but prefer the flexibility, when needed, of a van. Has anyone a better answer???
But in your case, I'd side with the copper's take on it. Vito is a van. A Vito dual liner, is a van with seats, IMHO.
I have a van with seats in it, a ducato, I assume it is a van with seats and stick to 60 on dual carriageways.
At least you appreciate the issue, amazing how many van drivers don't even know the speed limit may be different to a car.
jbsportstech said:
Has a precedent not been set in law already?
I not surprised the op has come unstuck but its seems the law are not clear on these complicated new rules.
I would drive it like a van and save the hassle.
Probably no case law effectively. I not surprised the op has come unstuck but its seems the law are not clear on these complicated new rules.
I would drive it like a van and save the hassle.
These are not new rules. What has changed is the way the rules are enforced. When these rules were written a potential prosecution would have involved a physical stop and the discussion could have been held at the roadside. However camera outfits don't operate like that, on top of which they are working on inaccurate data if everything the OP has told us is correct. No disrespect intended Op.
Of course it could be that a pc at the roadside wouldn't accept the dpv argument and continue to report, not unknown. Then it's down to the court and cps to proceed or the defendant to plead guilty.
I can appreciate your play safe to avoid hassle strategy, it's a bit like knocking a few mph off as you pass a speed camera in case it's not that accurate, just to make sure. Shouldn't have to do that.
Being hyper cynical the response from the camera people in a way reminds me of the sort of response that some councils give to parking appeals. They know, for example, the signs are deficient, they know if it goes all the way they will lose, but almost on a matter of policy they knock back the first appeal on the basis that a % will just roll over at that point. Yes Birmingham looking at you. Can't believe that Avon and Somerset are playing the same game for a second, but it just feels like that. If this office drone even did ten minutes homework or consulted with someone who knows their stuff she should realise the mistake that has possibly been made.
Of course an option at this point is for the OP to rollover and accept whatever comes. Based on what he's written if this were me it would go all the way.
SS2. said:
s3fella said:
I haven't read any other posts but..
Nuff said.. From reading them, my belief is that it is still a van. Seems like the camera unit thinks so too.
So as I said, an area that is far more confusing now than it was when the rules were set many years ago.
Flibble said:
GoneAnon said:
The V5C describes the van and the Dualiner as Goods Vehicles and the Traveliner as a Passenger vehicle.
I've never seen one sayng Dual Purpose Vehicle so the government really should simplify and clarify the rules.
While they are at it,they should standardise driving entitlements for different vehicles. It is a nonsense that I can borrow a 7.5T truck for my own use, but I can't move the same vehicle to another branch for my employer.
In a sense they did; they removed the right to drive 7.5T trucks for your own use. You presumably passed long enough ago to still have the entitlement, but I wouldn't shout too loud or they might take it. I've never seen one sayng Dual Purpose Vehicle so the government really should simplify and clarify the rules.
While they are at it,they should standardise driving entitlements for different vehicles. It is a nonsense that I can borrow a 7.5T truck for my own use, but I can't move the same vehicle to another branch for my employer.
from 1/1/1997 new car licence holders could not longer drive Cat C1 vehicles and to drive them required not only a C1 licence but also a valid group 2 medical
existing car licence holders can drive C1 vehicles until they are 70.
fro mthe final cut off date later this year C1 licence holders whether by test pass or by pre 1997 car licnece can only drive C1 s for most work purposes if they hold a driver CPC
some work related uses are out of scope for driver CPC
genuine not for hire or reward is also out of scope for driver CPC
however significant amounts of what is portrayed as not for hire or reward is infact for hire or reward ( sponsorship , prize money etc banger racers ( and other motorsport types)and show jumping/ evening types i'm looking straight at you here ...
s3fella said:
From reading them, my belief is that it is still a van. Seems like the camera unit thinks so too.
So as I said, an area that is far more confusing now than it was when the rules were set many years ago.
The definition of a DPV is clear and unambiguous.So as I said, an area that is far more confusing now than it was when the rules were set many years ago.
It's straightforward for the OP to review these and decide whether or not his vehicle meets the definition and, in turn, whether special speed limits do or do not apply.
FiF said:
One other thing OP. May I suggest that you have the conversation with DVLA and ask them about the issue of registering a vehicle as a DPV.
I suspect they can't. It may be that they don't even have the category on their system.
Personally would be most grateful if you could do that and let us know their answer. PM is ok if don't want to post up in public. Would be of assistance in my discussion with my MP.
I will do and happy to share the info.......I suspect they can't. It may be that they don't even have the category on their system.
Personally would be most grateful if you could do that and let us know their answer. PM is ok if don't want to post up in public. Would be of assistance in my discussion with my MP.
wessexrfc said:
Could you explain why, as this was their reasoning, thanks.
Because the legislation contains no reference (at all) to the V5C classification forming part of the criteria of a DPV.As for the reasoning of the SCP drone, think of it as a hopeful, bullying and optimistic punt on their part..
SS2. said:
The definition of a DPV is clear and unambiguous.
It's straightforward for the OP to review these and decide whether or not his vehicle meets the definition and, in turn, whether special speed limits do or do not apply.
If it is clear an unambiguous, why does the op have coppers telling him it is 60 on a dual carriageway, a speeding ticket from a camera unit, and even the Merc Sales guy on here saying these are sold as 'vans' subject to the lower limits? It's straightforward for the OP to review these and decide whether or not his vehicle meets the definition and, in turn, whether special speed limits do or do not apply.
The issue is that the OP has already decided that it is a car or dpv, but others, including the authorities seem to think otherwise.
As some others have suggested,treat is as a van and it would seem to take the whole issue away, it's what I do with mine and I dint notice it slows me down to any extent, tbh.
s3fella said:
If it is clear an unambiguous, why does the op have coppers telling him it is 60 on a dual carriageway, a speeding ticket from a camera unit, and even the Merc Sales guy on here saying these are sold as 'vans' subject to the lower limits?
Who knows - because they are unaware / ignorant / deliberately misleading of the legislation ?s3fella said:
The issue is that the OP has already decided that it is a car or dpv, but others, including the authorities seem to think otherwise.
The OP has the description of a DPV, he also has the vehicle - simple enough for him to check that it meets the requirements.s3fella said:
As some others have suggested,treat is as a van and it would seem to take the whole issue away, it's what I do with mine and I dint notice it slows me down to any extent, tbh.
That doesn't help with the matter in hand, namely the NIP that popped through his letterbox a few days back..Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff