Motorbike license for Piaggio MP3....confused??

[Pjj]

Does any one know where the law stands on this?

I was pulled up by the BiB this evening coming through West London on my Piaggio MP3 Yurban LT 300cc and asked if I had a full motorbike license?

They told me that the past few weeks they have been cracking down on MP3s after a recent fatal collision with a pedestrian and that to drive it I would need a full motorbike license since at 16kw it was over the 11kw limit for a car license and the law changed on 19th jan 2013. They are therefore now confiscating vehicles.... I was let off with the warning but am now rather confused!

I had a look at the Ask the police website

"Q504 What is the law re three wheel vehicles

Driving licence requirements
The driving licence legislation for three-wheelers (tricycles), irrespective of whether they are car or motorcycle based, changed considerably on 19.01.13. The two most important changes were that from 19.01.13, new rider/drivers:

must be a minimum of 21 years of age (for tricycles over 15 kW), and
require a motorcycle licence (category A or A1) to be able to drive them because they no longer fall within category B1.
The changes only affect those taking their test after 19.01.13. Those riders/drivers with existing full entitlement to ride/drive B1 category vehicles gained before 19.01.13 will retain that entitlement. However, when the holders of such licences exchange them, DVLA will add a new entitlement 'category A (limited to tricycles - - restriction code 79)', to their licence."

However it seems to me given I have had my license over 20 years and that I am actually OK? Though BiB never mentioned that point...??

Very grateful for any insights since otherwise this is all rather painful, expensive and I have become addicted to the machine!

If BiB are right not sure where I start with Piaggio who have very convenientlyy ignored all this in their marketing

Thanks

[iva cosworth]

Speed plod n law would've been better place for this.

[Mandat]

What categories do you have on your licence?

[Mastodon2]

It sounds like they're telling you to get your full licence. You should comply and in the process, you'll get to ride a proper bike. No doubt you'll have so much fun you'll be putting the Piaggio on sale shortly after you pass and buying a real bike.

[creampuff]

Pjj said:

They told me that the past few weeks they have been cracking down on MP3s after a recent fatal collision with a pedestrian and that to drive it I would need a full motorbike license since at 16kw it was over the 11kw limit for a car license and the law changed on 19th jan 2013. They are therefore now confiscating vehicles.... I was let off with the warning but am now rather confused!

If you did actually need a motorcycle licence to operate it, then you would have been unlicenced and uninsured when the police stopped you. There is no possibility that the police would let an unlicenced and uninsured vehicle operator continue on their journey.

[Pjj]

Mandat said:

What categories do you have on your licence?

Thanks i have looked up the codes and I do have Category A with a marking tricycle restriction code 79(tri) so I must be fine

I guess I am clearly naive but how can the police pull me over and give me a polite grilling that I was unaware of the law and that I could not be riding the MP3!

Where they are clearly being economical with the rules themselves or plain ignorant??

[Nigel Worc's]

Pjj said:

Mandat said:

What categories do you have on your licence?

Thanks i have looked up the codes and I do have Category A with a marking tricycle restriction code 79(tri) so I must be fine

I guess I am clearly naive but how can the police pull me over and give me a polite grilling that I was unaware of the law and that I could not be riding the MP3!

Where they are clearly being economical with the rules themselves or plain ignorant??

It is going to be yet another balls up of trying to bring all EU countries into line I guess.

Our lot usually make it even worse by awarding grandfather rights to some, but not others, removing catergories on renewal etc.

I think you can forgive plod for not knowing everything.

I have a new licence every three years, I'll have another later this year, since 2000 when I was forced to have a photocard I've never had two licences the same, they change everytime.

Just be grateful that you haven't suddenly got to take a test............ yet !

[Slidingpillar]

The licence unless issued after 19 Jan 2013 will not show the correct groups, but the police should know all that.

Having looked at a picture of the scooter - I don't know what it is described as on the V5c, but I suspect "tricycle". Is that correct?

The Piagio website certainly thinks a car licence will do, and as long as you passed a car test before 19th Jan 2013, or are over 21 (sounds like the police don't know this bit at all - came in this year) your licence should be fine. Licence groups were changed from 19th Jan 2013 as a result of the 3rd European Directive on driving licences, and the derogation to permit any UK car licence whose holder was over 21 years of age was added this year.

If a photo car licence with a test pass prior to 19th Jan 2013 is renewed now, it should be getting group A with note 79 added, which is the motorbike group, but limited to tricycles. As far as I know, there is no power limit to a licence with it on it either.

I strongly suggest you contact Piagio, although you'll have to wait until next week now. Please post here what they say as I do have a very strong interest in the subject. On the face of it, the police have got it very wrong - although in their defence, the law is both stupid and complex.

My vintage Morgan three wheeler is 30kW

Edited by Slidingpillar on Friday 11th July 23:37

Edited by Slidingpillar on Friday 11th July 23:50

[Nigel Worc's]

On the other side of the coin, why do you expect to ride a "motorcycle" based tricycle on a car licence ?

Why would you expect to drive a "car" based tricycle on a bike licence ?

For once I can sort of see where they are coming from.

[Pjj]

Thanks Guys

All very helpful I think I have now got there since I misplaced the license and a new one was issued in july 2013 so it explicitly covers a tricycle and from the driving license guidance this covers me for a tricycle over 15kw

Agreed the whole area is a bit of an anomaly and it is one that I took advantage of... I recently discovered scooters to save using a heavily modified GT3 to go shopping in and have become a complete convert initially with a 50cc pizza delivery Piaggio Liberty but then felt as though was kerb crawling too much and would be safer with a bit more presence and actually able to drive in the middle of the lane on my commute. The chance to get a 300cc without having to take 3 days off work hit a chord though I have done CBT to learn the basics which was time very well spent plus I will stand by the machine when it is pouring rain and you are heading round a greasy corner the third wheel is a massive confidence booster

My point is that really plod should know and check this if they are having a crack down. I was pulled over on the Mall just in front of Buckingham Palace they are clearly irked by a loophole that does enable someone to get on a 500cc tricycle and let rip which I sort of understand but they just do need to check their facts if they are as a policy pulling us over and then asking me to check it all on the internet!

I will raise with Piaggio and get back to the forum

[Nigel Worc's]

Pjj said:

Thanks Guys

All very helpful I think I have now got there since I misplaced the license and a new one was issued in july 2013 so it explicitly covers a tricycle and from the driving license guidance this covers me for a tricycle over 15kw

Agreed the whole area is a bit of an anomaly and it is one that I took advantage of... I recently discovered scooters to save using a heavily modified GT3 to go shopping in and have become a complete convert initially with a 50cc pizza delivery Piaggio Liberty but then felt as though was kerb crawling too much and would be safer with a bit more presence and actually able to drive in the middle of the lane on my commute. The chance to get a 300cc without having to take 3 days off work hit a chord though I have done CBT to learn the basics which was time very well spent plus I will stand by the machine when it is pouring rain and you are heading round a greasy corner the third wheel is a massive confidence booster

My point is that really plod should know and check this if they are having a crack down. I was pulled over on the Mall just in front of Buckingham Palace they are clearly irked by a loophole that does enable someone to get on a 500cc tricycle and let rip which I sort of understand but they just do need to check their facts if they are as a policy pulling us over and then asking me to check it all on the internet!

I will raise with Piaggio and get back to the forum

I don't blame you one little bit, and I'm from the age group where we all got motorcycle licences early on, and then extracted the urine with three wheel cars.

I can however understand why they'd want to tighten this up in todays H&S bullst era.

You can't expect constables to be 100% all of the time, none of us are in our particular jobs.

[bimsb6]

Nigel Worc's said:

I don't blame you one little bit, and I'm from the age group where we all got motorcycle licences early on, and then extracted the urine with three wheel cars.

I can however understand why they'd want to tighten this up in todays H&S bullst era.

You can't expect constables to be 100% all of the time, none of us are in our particular jobs.

You do however expect them to be correct if it is the very reason they have stopped you for .

[TwigtheWonderkid]

creampuff said:

If you did actually need a motorcycle licence to operate it, then you would have been unlicenced and uninsured when the police stopped you. There is no possibility that the police would let an unlicenced and uninsured vehicle operator continue on their journey.

He wouldn't have been uninsured. If you look on any certificate it'll say it covers you to drive if you have a licence to drive, or have held a licence to drive and are not prohibited from obtaining one , or words to that effect.

If the law has changed recently, and his licence did used to cover him, then he has held a licence to drive, and as there's nothing stopping him from obtaining the correct licence now, then his insurance is still valid.

[Fort Jefferson]

Pjj said:

I was let off with the warning but am now rather confused!

A warning for what? Either you were legal or not. If not, they would have to prosecute.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Fort Jefferson said:

Pjj said:

I was let off with the warning but am now rather confused!

A warning for what? Either you were legal or not. If not, they would have to prosecute.

No they wouldn't. They are quite able to say "following changes in the regs, your current licence doesn't cover this vehicle. So go away and sort it out." If they choose to. Especially if the licence used to cover it and they take the view that the public are not endangered. It's not like a 17 y/o provisional licence holder driving a 44tn artic down the high street!!!

Like minor vehicle defects, they are able to point it out and ask you to sort it asap.

[Slidingpillar]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

No they wouldn't. They are quite able to say "following changes in the regs, your current licence doesn't cover this vehicle. So go away and sort it out."

While there have been changes in driving licences that weren't 'grandfathered', as far as I know, all the recent ones have been. The whole saga of the stop rather makes me think the policeman realised after a while he was on sticky ground and the final outcome was worded to be face saving. Perhaps?

[Dr Jekyll]

If the MP3 is legally a tricycle, does that mean you don't need to wear a helmet?

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Slidingpillar said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

No they wouldn't. They are quite able to say "following changes in the regs, your current licence doesn't cover this vehicle. So go away and sort it out."

While there have been changes in driving licences that weren't 'grandfathered', as far as I know, all the recent ones have been. The whole saga of the stop rather makes me think the policeman realised after a while he was on sticky ground and the final outcome was worded to be face saving. Perhaps?

You could well be right. But even if the copper was right, and knew he was right, he is still able to deal with the matter with a warning. It's within his discretion.

[Fort Jefferson]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

It's within his discretion.

Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence, discretionary? Your having a laugh.

[Nigel Worc's]

Fort Jefferson said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

It's within his discretion.

Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence, discretionary? Your having a laugh.

I've been on the receiving end of that discretion, thankfully, so yes it does happen.