Court Summons - Section 144

[SwankBaton]

Hi ,
Any advice on what I should be doing next !

Background :
Car has always been in continuous insurance during my time with it (4 years).
I changed the registration plate earlier this year. I didnt notify the insurance company immediately as the car was not being used during Winter and renewal was due so I thought I'd wait and only have one discussion with insurance provider and get the Reg# changed on the certificate.

So DVLA send out a letter with a penalty , I return the letter detailing the situation, giving the previous Registration Number the car was insured on , policy # etc. thinking that would be me in the clear.....

Next thing I know I have a summons to court, its a plea hearing initially... 3 days before my wedding.
- Why didnt the DVLA tell me they did not accept my excuse and give me the opportunity to pay the fine?


So where do I stand ? In my eyes the car was insured ! ( Premium paid in full up front, albeit on a different registration number).
I will speak to my insurance company today and find out if they would honour insurance in this scenario.
I have receipts from the trip to the DVLA office when I swapped the Reg (receipt is for retention certificate which states the Reg number that ties up with the Insurance certificate : This is my proof the vehicle was insured at the time, I have old Tax disc (not that it helps in this case).

I really dont want to have to go to court for this, for Plea hearing or an actual
Any help or ideas? A contact number for the department I need to get through to in DVLA? I have the name of the witness to the fixed penalty notice but im guessing they dont have any power to drop any of this with a convincing phone call anyway.


Thanks
Al

[tenpenceshort]

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning for not updating your insurance right away (other than you didn't want to pay the usual admin fee they tend to apply for making changes to the policy)?

In any case, you ought to ring the DVLA and find out if you've missed a letter from them. If you want to avoid court I would have thought they'd settle if you pay up beforehand whatever fine they say is outstanding.

[SwankBaton]

Thanks for reply - Probably a mix of not wanting the admin fee (renewal was one month away) and filing the letter and forgetting about it.

Will contact DVLA....

[Trax]

I would not personally be paying any fine, the car was insured, therefore how can they fine you for no insurance?

You insure the car, not the number plate.

(all in my opinion of course)

[tenpenceshort]

Trax said:

I would not personally be paying any fine, the car was insured, therefore how can they fine you for no insurance?

You insure the car, not the number plate.

(all in my opinion of course)

My bold below.

RTA s144A said:

Offence of keeping vehicle which does not meet insurance requirements

(1)If a motor vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 does not meet the insurance requirements, the person in whose name the vehicle is registered is guilty of an offence.

(2)For the purposes of this section a vehicle meets the insurance requirements if—
(a)it is covered by a such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act, and
(b)either of the following conditions is satisfied.

(3)The first condition is that the policy or security, or the certificate of insurance or security which relates to it, identifies the vehicle by its registration mark as a vehicle which is covered by the policy or security.

(4)The second condition is that the vehicle is covered by the policy or security because—
(a)the policy or security covers any vehicle, or any vehicle of a particular description, the owner of which is a person named in the policy or security or in the certificate of insurance or security which relates to it, and
(b)the vehicle is owned by that person.

(5)For the purposes of this section a vehicle is covered by a policy of insurance or security if the policy of insurance or security is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle.

[Trax]

tenpenceshort said:

Trax said:

I would not personally be paying any fine, the car was insured, therefore how can they fine you for no insurance?

You insure the car, not the number plate.

(all in my opinion of course)

My bold below.

RTA s144A said:

Offence of keeping vehicle which does not meet insurance requirements

(1)If a motor vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 does not meet the insurance requirements, the person in whose name the vehicle is registered is guilty of an offence.

(2)For the purposes of this section a vehicle meets the insurance requirements if—
(a)it is covered by a such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act, and
(b)either of the following conditions is satisfied.

(3)The first condition is that the policy or security, or the certificate of insurance or security which relates to it, identifies the vehicle by its registration mark as a vehicle which is covered by the policy or security.

(4)The second condition is that the vehicle is covered by the policy or security because—
(a)the policy or security covers any vehicle, or any vehicle of a particular description, the owner of which is a person named in the policy or security or in the certificate of insurance or security which relates to it, and
(b)the vehicle is owned by that person.

(5)For the purposes of this section a vehicle is covered by a policy of insurance or security if the policy of insurance or security is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle.

Bugger....


edit..

Thinking on, could the OP not argue section (5) applies, so long as he can obtain info from the insurance comp that they would cover the vehicle, and the insurance is in relation to that vehicle, irrespective of the changed number plate?

Edited by Trax on Monday 14th July 12:13

[agtlaw]

swankBaton said:

...

You don't have to attend the plea hearing as you can / should tender your plea by post. You may wish to plead not guilty, set out in a covering letter your (brief) circumstances, enclose any relevant documentation and see what happens. You may be lucky. If it's adjourned then it's probably worth another approach - this time to the prosecuting authority.


Edit: in the meantime, contact DVLA and confirm in writing anything important.

[elanfan]

In these circumstances most insurers would in all likelihood confirm that the vehicle was indeed insured.

The DVLA is turning into a bullying organisation - let's not forget that government departments are there to serve us not penalise for minor infractions. It is not as if you have made any gains or avoided fines etc by your inaction.

I'd write a very clear letter back to them detailing the circumstances and confirming details of the car insurance arrangements and then say see you in court if you want to proceed. Make it clear you will be claiming all your costs back from them.

[SwankBaton]

Thanks for replies.
Spoke to DVLA - No help at all (surprise) and wouldnt discuss it, could only put me through to pay the fine (which I didnt do)
What they did confirm is receipt of my 'complaint' ie my first attempt to argue the fine. Clearly the next letter through is the summons , no acknowledgement of my reply, I agree with a post above, they act like corporate bullies sometimes.

Spoke to my insurance company, unfortunately they declined to send a letter of indemnity but suggested I send all details I have , e.g : Insurance Certificate (old reg) , copies of old and new tax disc etc. I'll include the receipt for transferring old plate onto retention certificate as this is my date/time proof of valid insurance at time of the Reg transfer.

I have until August 7th so I'll send that lot off with recorded delivery.
I expect DVLA to argue the point that the vehicle is identified by Registration# so bugger indeed as someone else put it.

Have not got high hopes of getting out of this, will chalk it up to me being disorganized and make sure I pay attention and respond in due time in future.

It smarts when you had the opportunity to not get fined in the first place :-(

[elanfan]

Who are your insurers? They should have a very clear understanding that the vehicle they are covering is one and the same despite there being a change of registration number. I know the company I worked for for 36 years would have had no problem with the indemnity letter.

[SwankBaton]

Broker is Classic Line, I think the underwriters are Equity Red Star.
Its probably down to whoever picks up the phone call.

[elanfan]

You need to get hold of a senior member of staff from your broker and play merry hell with them. If they don't play ball suggest you will name and shame them on a very well known motoring website which would cost them some business and give them a bad name.

[caziques]

A car always retains its original registration number, which sits behind the scenes so to speak.

Hence when a private plate is taken off a car, it gets its old one back - even if the car had a private plate from new (ie an identity is still issued).

Therefore I can't see how any offence has been committed.

[tenpenceshort]

You ought to read the legislation above; there is a requirement that the insurance certificate identifies the car by its registration.

[grumpy52]

IMHO the vehicle did not change when the registration mark was changed .
Would be interesting to see this argued in an unbiased court rather than the tame one the government and councils have in their pockets .

[GC8]

swankBaton said:

Broker is Classic Line, I think the underwriters are Equity Red Star.
Its probably down to whoever picks up the phone call.

Speak to Cheryl Golder/Finch. Classicline seem to have taken on new staff over the last year who aren't particularly good at anything.

[LoonR1]

You changed the reg and renewal was due in a month and you've gone from a letter to court in that time. Unlikely.