56% of drivers convicted of killing cyclists avoid prison
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
Snowboy said:
Regardless of journalistic reporting of numbers I think it broadly supports the point that it's not always the drivers fault.
Everybody knows that, but that doesn't excuse an enormous bias or swing to one side.I don't know if it is the case that cyclist victims are more likely to be partly responsible. To answer that question, you don't want to ask things like "when cyclist is killed by a car, how often is it the driver's fault and how often is it the cyclist's fault?", you want to ask things like "how does the proportion of cyclists who contribute to their own death compare with the proportion of road users in general who do?".
oyster said:
But you're assuming prison is only about preventing re-offending. On that point alone I agree that a mistake that kills someone is most likely enough deterrent to make a mistake again, without prison time.
But there still needs to be consideration for punishment.
What do you mean by that? What is 'punishment' if not prevention of re-offending'?But there still needs to be consideration for punishment.
tenpenceshort said:
Even using your own figures, in more than a 1/3 of cases the Police didn't consider the motorist entirely at fault, perhaps explaining why drivers are not jailed as often for deaths involving cyclists?
To get to your figure of a third, you have to include children. Edited by tenpenceshort on Wednesday 23 July 13:47
The lorry driver who ran over and inflicted life altering injuries on Times journalist Mary Bowers was giving directions to a colleague on a phone when he hit her (a fact he later lied about to Police and to Mary’s family. On hearing the screams of a passing cyclist he leapt from his cab to see what was the problem, but forgot to apply the handbrake and watched from the roadside as his truck continued to run over Ms Bowers.
A jury of 12 found him not guilty of dangerous driving.
Adrianna Skryzpiec was dragged beneath a truck for 140 metres . The driver never stopped, having never even realized he’d run someone over. His legal team argued it would have been impossible for him to have ever seen Adrianna from within his cab – effectively admitting it was impossible for him to safely share the road – and were able to have his case dismissed.
http://ibikelondon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/kill-cyc...
Martin Porter, QC, commenting on the judicial system said; “These laws.. ..are not deterring bad driving and are not keeping bad drivers off the roads to the extent that they should.”
A jury of 12 found him not guilty of dangerous driving.
Adrianna Skryzpiec was dragged beneath a truck for 140 metres . The driver never stopped, having never even realized he’d run someone over. His legal team argued it would have been impossible for him to have ever seen Adrianna from within his cab – effectively admitting it was impossible for him to safely share the road – and were able to have his case dismissed.
http://ibikelondon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/kill-cyc...
Martin Porter, QC, commenting on the judicial system said; “These laws.. ..are not deterring bad driving and are not keeping bad drivers off the roads to the extent that they should.”
OTBC said:
His legal team argued it would have been impossible for him to have ever seen Adrianna from within his cab – effectively admitting it was impossible for him to safely share the road – and were able to have his case dismissed.
In fairness that's not an issue for the driver nor a case of bad driving.MrTrilby said:
You're simply guessing, and with respect to crashes involving adult cyclists, you're completely wrong.
No he's not. In London the vast majority of cyclists killed are passing a vehicle on the side to which its turning.If they'd learn that they need to wait behind an indicating vehicle instead of sneaking up the side of it, then there would be very few adult cycle deaths.
OTBC said:
It's interesting that HGVs are 5% of traffic, yet are involved in 50% of cycling fatalities. Buses are much safer. So, do cyclists suddenly take more risks around HGVs?
I expect its at least in part due to the bus passengers yelling "Stop! Stop! Stop!" at the driver, due to being positioned alongside the cyclist disappearing under the bus.If lorries aren't killing more bikers than cyclists, then it suggests the possibility of error on the cyclists part.
heebeegeetee said:
OTBC said:
His legal team argued it would have been impossible for him to have ever seen Adrianna from within his cab – effectively admitting it was impossible for him to safely share the road – and were able to have his case dismissed.
In fairness that's not an issue for the driver nor a case of bad driving.heebeegeetee said:
tenpenceshort said:
Even using your own figures, in more than a 1/3 of cases the Police didn't consider the motorist entirely at fault, perhaps explaining why drivers are not jailed as often for deaths involving cyclists?
To get to your figure of a third, you have to include children. Edited by tenpenceshort on Wednesday 23 July 13:47
LucreLout said:
No he's not. In London the vast majority of cyclists killed are passing a vehicle on the side to which its turning.
If they'd learn that they need to wait behind an indicating vehicle instead of sneaking up the side of it, then there would be very few adult cycle deaths.
That is simply not true.If they'd learn that they need to wait behind an indicating vehicle instead of sneaking up the side of it, then there would be very few adult cycle deaths.
The lorry driver who killed cyclist Catriona Patel was drunk and chatting on a mobile.
The lorry driver who killed Eilidh Cairns had faulty eyesight (the police didn't even bother to discover this until the same driver killed another woman.)
The lorry driver who killed cyclist Brian Dorling turned across his path.
The lorry driver who killed cyclist Svetlana Tereschenko was in an unsafe lorry, failing to indicate and chatting on a mobile. The police decided to charge him with..nothing.
The lorry driver who killed cyclist Deep Lee failed to notice her and smashed into her from behind.
The lorry driver that killed cyclist Andrew McNicoll failed to notice him and side swiped him.
The lorry driver that killed cyclist Daniel Cox was in a truck which did not have the correct mirrors and whose driver had pulled into the ASL on a red light and was indicating in the opposite direction to which he turned.
LucreLout said:
No he's not. In London the vast majority of cyclists killed are passing a vehicle on the side to which its turning.
If they'd learn that they need to wait behind an indicating vehicle instead of sneaking up the side of it, then there would be very few adult cycle deaths.
You're wasting your time giving helpful advise to cyclists. It seems they can never be in the wrong.If they'd learn that they need to wait behind an indicating vehicle instead of sneaking up the side of it, then there would be very few adult cycle deaths.
tenpenceshort said:
our point being?
Well, fwr we don't seem to see many prosecutions either way when collisions involve children on bikes. Perhaps because with children behaving like children, a great many of the cases don't come to court or don'r result in prosecution of the motorist.The article referred to cases that had gone to court, I suspect the majority will involve adult cyclists, up to 75% it seems were totally fault free in their demise.
LucreLout said:
No he's not. In London the vast majority of cyclists killed are passing a vehicle on the side to which its turning.
If they'd learn that they need to wait behind an indicating vehicle instead of sneaking up the side of it, then there would be very few adult cycle deaths.
This is not true. Most rtcs take place at junctions, but the single most common collision is the cyclist hit from behind.If they'd learn that they need to wait behind an indicating vehicle instead of sneaking up the side of it, then there would be very few adult cycle deaths.
This is also a dishonest claim because it describes a cyclist using a near-side cycle lane as 'sneaking' along. Loaded terminology.
jimbop1 said:
LucreLout said:
No he's not. In London the vast majority of cyclists killed are passing a vehicle on the side to which its turning.
If they'd learn that they need to wait behind an indicating vehicle instead of sneaking up the side of it, then there would be very few adult cycle deaths.
You're wasting your time giving helpful advise to cyclists. It seems they can never be in the wrong.If they'd learn that they need to wait behind an indicating vehicle instead of sneaking up the side of it, then there would be very few adult cycle deaths.
jimbop1 said:
WinstonWolf said:
I thought you were going to stay out of cycling threads? You just can't keep your snout out, can you...
Nice try Winston. All helps your post count.jimbop1 said:
I don't think I will be getting involved in cycle threads from now on.
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