Dispute With Builders - Radiator Sizing

[IN51GHT]

Last year we had a two storey extension built at not inconsiderable cost.

During the winter the utility (3m x 3m suspended concrete floor) room that was built is very cold (too cold to use), in my opinion this is due to rad sizing, the one fitted is approx 1500btu, every online calculator I have used to check the sizing states around 3000btu. The builder company owner was invited out to see how cold the room was but he declined to visit.

I've witheld £250 as a result of this as I can see the rad will need replacing, every few weeks I'll get an e-mail saying the he's still waiting payment & the rad is the correct size.

I have stated on numerous occasions that I will gladly pay if he can supply calc's to backup his claims that the rad is the correct size, he never replies, until a few weeks later I get another e-mail chasing payment.

The latest e-mail is saying unless payment is received in 7 days the a debt collector will be sent round.

What are my options from here? I have once again replied stating he declined to visit site to check room temp, that if he can supply calc's to backup his claims that the rad is correct I'll gladly pay.

[Durzel]

IANAL but I don't imagine you can withhold an arbitrary amount of money on a whim because you're not satisfied with a particular part of the job.

How have you reached the conclusion that £250 is the cost of remedial work including a replacement radiator?

Surely you agreed and signed off on the work before reaching this conclusion?

Again, IANAL so take with a liberal pinch of salt.

[Snowboy]

It mostly depends on what's written in the contract.
Does it allow you to withold payment?
Did you agree to that size radiator when you signed something?

If you two can't agree then it's going to need to go to court.

Unless the contract has a clause in it about money then as far as I'm aware you still owe him that money.
You can go to court and try and sue him for the cost of a new radiaror I guess.

But, we're then back to the contract to work out exactly what the builder did wrong.

[IN51GHT]

Snowboy said:

Did you agree to that size radiator when you signed something?

I queried the size of the radiator when specced saying it was too small.

£250 is the cost of a new rad.

[silverous]

I'm sure someone will be along with the legal position but my humble opinion is that builders get away with this sort of thing far too much and they are a nightmare to get back to finish things properly.

He should sort your radiator out and get his £250 and end on a happy note. I'd also say if it is the only issue you have and he deals with it professionally it sounds like it has gone well but it seems often builders don't care too much about reputation they are happy to fall out over a few hundred quid.

No way he is going to pay a debt collection agency or go to court over £250 in my view. Send him a polite letter noting the history of the issue, stating that you are not happy that the room is not heated correctly and that you have given him opportunity to address and that if he doesn't address within x days you will be utilising the £250 to put in an appropriate radiator per commonly available BTU calculations.

Would be interested to know what your contract with him says tho.

[Snowboy]

IN51GHT said:

Snowboy said:

Did you agree to that size radiator when you signed something?

I queried the size of the radiator when specced saying it was too small.

£250 is the cost of a new rad.

So you queried it; but you didn't actually insist on a larger radiator.
That's where it gets a bit tricky.
Did you add a contract clause at the time about what to do if you were right about it being too small?

He doesn't actually owe you £250.
The fair thing is for him to deduct the cost of the small radiator from the cost of a new radiator. You pay the difference, he fits for free.

[marshalla]

Who specified the 1500btu radiator ? You ? The builder ? An Architect ?

[IN51GHT]

marshalla said:

Who specified the 1500btu radiator ? You ? The builder ? An Architect ?

The builder, I said it's not large enough, that we needed one around 3000btu, he said it was fine, I said it wasn't, he fitted.

[V8 Fettler]

Did you monitor temperature on a daily basis, or is this one of these nebulous he says/she says situations?

[98elise]

1500 btu is just about the minumum for a utility room of that size, if you go to the lower end of an acceptable temperature range.

What are the exact dimensions (including height), how many outside walls, how many windows, and what are your temperature expectations.

[Snowboy]

IN51GHT said:

marshalla said:

Who specified the 1500btu radiator ? You ? The builder ? An Architect ?

The builder, I said it's not large enough, that we needed one around 3000btu, he said it was fine, I said it wasn't, he fitted.

What did it say in the plans or on the contract?

If you didn't want it you should have made him change it at the time not wait for months.
We're looking at building work from 7 months ago.

Either pay the builder or call a lawyer.

[IN51GHT]

Snowboy said:

If you didn't want it you should have made him change it at the time not wait for months.
We're looking at building work from 7 months ago.

I have been complaining from day one of the utility being in use, he has refused to replace. In fact, my firts e-nail was 8th August last year stating that I feel the radiator is undersized.

The room is 3m x 3m x 2.25m, three external walls, approx 4m of double glazed units, suspended concrete floor.

[marshalla]

IN51GHT said:

I have been complaining from day one of the utility being in use, he has refused to replace. In fact, my firts e-nail was 8th August last year stating that I feel the radiator is undersized.

The room is 3m x 3m x 2.25m, three external walls, approx 4m of double glazed units, suspended concrete floor.

There's the problem - "feelings" aren't good enough - get some hard facts and proof that the contract requires sufficient heating to be installed, then you can chase him under the Supply of Goods and Services Act.

[RichardD]

IN51GHT said:

I have been complaining from day one of the utility being in use, he has refused to replace. In fact, my first e-mail was 8th August last year stating that I feel the radiator is undersized.
...

When was (in the builders world) the money (that has been withheld) initially due?

[IN51GHT]

RichardD said:

When was (in the builders world) the money (that has been withheld) initially due?

About Jan this year, I said to him in August last year I thought the rad was too small & he said he'd sort it id it was. Since then, despite me providing him with calc's showing a requirement of approx 3000BTU in Jan, he has refused to act.

I have spelt it out in very simple terms to him that I will pay when one of two things happen.

1. He installs the correct size radiator.

2. He provides me with calc's showing the current rad to be correct.

He is unable/unwilling to do either.

[RichardD]

IN51GHT said:

About Jan this year...

I'm only going on here with observation rather than proper legal knowledge, but where I work, 7 days is late for payment and typically before being 14 days late for payment, a solicitors LBA letter has been sent to the debtor.

In your case many months have gone by and they haven't been overly active in persuing the money. (It is amazing how many emails / calls can happen with people not responding and then suddenly money appears two days after a solicitors letter gets sent!)

Easy for me to say but I'd be tempted to wait to see what the 'debt collector' does, should they even appear. But be prepared if they do (politely mentioning the dispute and unanswered messages)!

[catman]

The debt collector will be unable to do anything until the debt is agreed by a court.

If you tell them that the debt is in dispute, they have to refer it back to the Builder.

Tim

[98elise]

marshalla said:

IN51GHT said:

I have been complaining from day one of the utility being in use, he has refused to replace. In fact, my firts e-nail was 8th August last year stating that I feel the radiator is undersized.

The room is 3m x 3m x 2.25m, three external walls, approx 4m of double glazed units, suspended concrete floor.

There's the problem - "feelings" aren't good enough - get some hard facts and proof that the contract requires sufficient heating to be installed, then you can chase him under the Supply of Goods and Services Act.

3 external walls immediately says the rad is undersized. 1500 btu would just about heat a room of that size with 1 external wall. Even then it would be on the cold side. I suspect the builder has not accounted for the floor, the glass, the external walls etc. these all need to be taken i to account when doing the calculations.

Also If the room cold on a newly built extension, then something is clearly wrong.

To the OP, I suspect he also didn't look at flow rates, or your boiler capacity. Its very easy to compound the problem by not having a suitable supply to the rad.

[silverous]

marshalla said:

There's the problem - "feelings" aren't good enough - get some hard facts and proof that the contract requires sufficient heating to be installed, then you can chase him under the Supply of Goods and Services Act.

Thanks for pointing the act out, I'd never heard of this act and thought you meant the sale of goods act. It seems that it requires "traders to provide services to a proper standard of workmanship", he doesn't need proof that the contract requires it - in my view no judge is going to be happy with a radiator being fitted (against the customer's own advice to his builder!) that is insufficient according to industry standard calcs.

I don't really care about the contract or the law on this one - a builder ought to install a radiator that is sufficient to heat the room it is going in. Full stop. If the law and the contract don't reflect that then that is unfortunate but it doesn't change my view of his obligation.

[sherbertdip]

Back to basics here, but has the fitted radiator been bled, had the flow balanced and the radstat been checked to makes sure it operates properly?