"Travellers" - rights, welfare, legalities?
Discussion
hidetheelephants said:
There was a council traveller site set up next to a scrapyard I use occasionally; a bit utilitarian and slightly out of the way, but there were toilet blocks, a bin block, water, sewage and power hook-ups. Within 6 months the toilets had been stripped of copper, everything else trashed and piles of filth and rubbish left everywhere; the scummers then refused to use it because it wasn't sanitary.
Similar to what they've done round here, a waste of money by the council they just trashed it when they left, these scum don't acknowldege the law unless it happens to be on their side. They need to be treated very differently ie take the things off them which will render them non travellers, starting with their kids - they should get taken off them unless they have a permanent home and are enrolled in a school. Or burn their caravans!
Fully concur with the majority on this. If we (powerful directors and all...) pitched up en mass in our transits/pick ups etc in a council car park or police car park,behind/next to Daves or Millibands place trashed it etc,would we be 'allowed' to stay until a court order was produced ? If its because they are a 'defined' group maybe we could be Jedi ??? Answers on a postcard please....
Martin4x4 said:
If you think that was a joke, I don't know if I should feel offended or relieved that you find the event equally distasteful.
My comments was most certainly not a 'joke' the emoticon was to convey geniune shock at 1) photos of armed police in Europe rounding up civilians because they were the 'wrong' race, 2) The sickening approval shown by posters that think this not only acceptable but laudable behaviour. 3) The very clear similarity with the Ghetos of WW2 (which aih included Gypsies). The only thing missing is a 'final solution' but given the disgraceful bigotry of some here, that suggestion will be along shortly.
The Roma in France are not being persecuted because of their race, they are being persecuted because they are disobeying French laws.My comments was most certainly not a 'joke' the emoticon was to convey geniune shock at 1) photos of armed police in Europe rounding up civilians because they were the 'wrong' race, 2) The sickening approval shown by posters that think this not only acceptable but laudable behaviour. 3) The very clear similarity with the Ghetos of WW2 (which aih included Gypsies). The only thing missing is a 'final solution' but given the disgraceful bigotry of some here, that suggestion will be along shortly.
Edited by Martin4x4 on Friday 25th July 19:21
French police treat French citizens in the same manner!
They are given a chance to conform - and if they don't, then action is taken.
It might seem brutal to us, but the majority of French people expect it.
It is not just the Roma that are targeted - migrants from Africa are treated exactly the same if they adopt the same attitude as some of the Roma - but generally they tend to be more compliant and stick to the law.
These French youths had been moved on by municipal police (not Gendarmes) from outside a store where shoppers had felt intimidated - and they were tackled again as soon as they showed signs of repeating their behaviour several hundreds of metres away...
rallycross said:
Similar to what they've done round here, a waste of money by the council they just trashed it when they left, these scum don't acknowldege the law unless it happens to be on their side.
They need to be treated very differently ie take the things off them which will render them non travellers, starting with their kids - they should get taken off them unless they have a permanent home and are enrolled in a school. Or burn their caravans!
I have to agree after accidentally taking a wrong turn and ending up in one of these travellers areas... loads of piles of sThey need to be treated very differently ie take the things off them which will render them non travellers, starting with their kids - they should get taken off them unless they have a permanent home and are enrolled in a school. Or burn their caravans!
t dumped and the toilets wrecked..imagineifyeswill said:
Dont know about England but in Scotland every council has to supply official traveller sites, if they dont the travellers are free to set up camp wherever they like.
which proper travellers often do use , however the feral, criminal DAYLs don't use those sites for the same reason 'homesess' pissheads and junkies refuse to use the homeless shelters - you have to follow the rules if you want to use the site ... Suggesting that anyone who lives in a caravan is a criminal scumbag is just as daft as suggesting that everyone Scottish is mean with money. Suggestions of internment, seizure of property etc without due process are very PH (this must be one of the most illiberal net fora in the UK), but such suggestions are as expensive (who pays?) and unworkable as they are contrary to basic principles of British liberty.
A relatively small but disproportionately noisy and attention getting group of feckless and irresponsible travellers cause a lot of trouble. There are in fact things that can be done to counter such trouble, but these things needs initiative and will and expenditure of resources on the part of police, local authorities and private landowners.
There is much misconception about travellers' "rights". They have no rights that are not available to anyone else.
Statutory local authority camps used to be managed and monitored quite firmly in some areas, and troublemakers were evicted. When maintained voluntarily (the Statute having been repealed) they still function well in some areas, but not in others.
The present situation unfairly places burdens randomly on whomever happens to be affected by anti social traveller behaviour, but it appears that there is no legislative appetite for a return to a fairer utilitarian spread of the burden.
A relatively small but disproportionately noisy and attention getting group of feckless and irresponsible travellers cause a lot of trouble. There are in fact things that can be done to counter such trouble, but these things needs initiative and will and expenditure of resources on the part of police, local authorities and private landowners.
There is much misconception about travellers' "rights". They have no rights that are not available to anyone else.
Statutory local authority camps used to be managed and monitored quite firmly in some areas, and troublemakers were evicted. When maintained voluntarily (the Statute having been repealed) they still function well in some areas, but not in others.
The present situation unfairly places burdens randomly on whomever happens to be affected by anti social traveller behaviour, but it appears that there is no legislative appetite for a return to a fairer utilitarian spread of the burden.
Our problem has expanded over the past 36 hours. There are now said to be over 50 travellers on site, in 15 or so caravans. All the caravans look brand new to me, and all the vehicles are 12/13/14 plated. They have taken over the entire area, the green, the stream and the kids' playground. Plenty stories of locals going to use the playground and the kids being beaten up, etc. BiB have stationed themselves 100 yards away (seemingly a permanent presence) but strangely enough, in a lay-by where they can't actually see anything going on unless they move.
The local councils claim that they have served the dirty vermin c**** (I'm sorry, I don't use that word often but it does feel like the only appropriate epithet) with eviction notices and have said that if they are not off within 24 hours (served yesterday) they will go to court for eviction notices - but not until Tuesday?
They have said they will leave on Sunday but that's bks. There was one family there 2 weeks ago who were not even served with a notice, they were "consulted" on their plans to move on and left to depart at their leisure. Many of the residents told the council that the village would be seen as an easy touch and that this mass influx would happen if they didn't take firm action, and sadly we've been proven right. One of the families were even seen back here last Tues scoping it all out, reported to the council, and fk all was done about it.
Meantime the vermin continue to drive across the green (why, why, why why are they not being served with S.59s? Do it twice then take the vehicles off them? I bet I couldn't ride my enduro bike across the green once without being ticketed?) and flip us all the bird. 2 weeks ago, it took Environmental Health a day to clear the site of human excrement after just one family had been there; it's going to be a no-go zone for ages if/when this lot ever fk off. They are using the village stream, where all the local kids and families play in the summer, as a communal latrine.
Filthy dirty bds. Culling the lot of them like seals at birth would be too good for them.
The local councils claim that they have served the dirty vermin c**** (I'm sorry, I don't use that word often but it does feel like the only appropriate epithet) with eviction notices and have said that if they are not off within 24 hours (served yesterday) they will go to court for eviction notices - but not until Tuesday?
They have said they will leave on Sunday but that's bks. There was one family there 2 weeks ago who were not even served with a notice, they were "consulted" on their plans to move on and left to depart at their leisure. Many of the residents told the council that the village would be seen as an easy touch and that this mass influx would happen if they didn't take firm action, and sadly we've been proven right. One of the families were even seen back here last Tues scoping it all out, reported to the council, and fk all was done about it. Meantime the vermin continue to drive across the green (why, why, why why are they not being served with S.59s? Do it twice then take the vehicles off them? I bet I couldn't ride my enduro bike across the green once without being ticketed?) and flip us all the bird. 2 weeks ago, it took Environmental Health a day to clear the site of human excrement after just one family had been there; it's going to be a no-go zone for ages if/when this lot ever fk off. They are using the village stream, where all the local kids and families play in the summer, as a communal latrine.
Filthy dirty b
ds. Culling the lot of them like seals at birth would be too good for them.Edited by CAPP0 on Saturday 26th July 19:42
The burden is a practical reality. We can't just close our eyes to the burdens that irresponsible travellers place on people whom they stop near. Also, how do you classify between the traveller who is a contributor to society and the traveller who isn't? What about children? Poor Law up to the nineteenth century tried to distinguish between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor (this was satirised by Dickens in several novels and by Shaw in Pygmalion), but that didn't work.
Those of you who talk of culls and of forced detention and forced labour: how do you identify the group who will be target of your policies? Caravan dwellers? Do you not see that identifying everyone who has a shared characteristic (let us say living in a caravan) as having the same behavioral traits is problematic? Would you do the same if the shared characteristic was colour or national origin?
Those of you who talk of culls and of forced detention and forced labour: how do you identify the group who will be target of your policies? Caravan dwellers? Do you not see that identifying everyone who has a shared characteristic (let us say living in a caravan) as having the same behavioral traits is problematic? Would you do the same if the shared characteristic was colour or national origin?
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 31st July 08:33
BV, is the legal framework around living that lifestyle sufficiently clear and unambiguous, and does it enable their nuisance to be prevented if the will applied to enforce it? Is it enforceable? Does it need primary legislation for clarity, and are police powers sufficient?
I found those French photographs unpleasant to look at, but travellers do create social problems. The French strategy is obviously to make them someone else's problem.
I found those French photographs unpleasant to look at, but travellers do create social problems. The French strategy is obviously to make them someone else's problem.
Breadvan72 said:
The burden is a practical reality. We can't just close our we burdens on people whom they stop near. Also, how do you classify between the traveller who is a contributor to society and the traveller who isn't? What about children? Poor Law up to the nineteenth century tried to distinguish between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor (this was satirised by Dickens in several novels and by Shaw in Pygmalion), but that didn't work.
Those of you who talk of culls and of forced detention and forced labour: how do you identify the group who will be target of your policies? Caravan dwellers? Do you not see that identifying everyone who has a shared characteristic (let us say living in a caravan) as having the same behavioral traits is problematic? Would you do the same if the shared characteristic was colour or national origin?
It's got nothing to do with what they live in but everything to do with how they behave, breaking numerous laws with impunity.Those of you who talk of culls and of forced detention and forced labour: how do you identify the group who will be target of your policies? Caravan dwellers? Do you not see that identifying everyone who has a shared characteristic (let us say living in a caravan) as having the same behavioral traits is problematic? Would you do the same if the shared characteristic was colour or national origin?
Edited by Breadvan72 on Saturday 26th July 14:53
Breadvan72 said:
The burden is a practical reality. We can't just close our we burdens on people whom they stop near. Also, how do you classify between the traveller who is a contributor to society and the traveller who isn't? What about children? Poor Law up to the nineteenth century tried to distinguish between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor (this was satirised by Dickens in several novels and by Shaw in Pygmalion), but that didn't work.
Those of you who talk of culls and of forced detention and forced labour: how do you identify the group who will be target of your policies? Caravan dwellers? Do you not see that identifying everyone who has a shared characteristic (let us say living in a caravan) as having the same behavioral traits is problematic? Would you do the same if the shared characteristic was colour or national origin?
I'm sure the DWP and HMRC can provide evidence on who is 'contributing' or not ... Those of you who talk of culls and of forced detention and forced labour: how do you identify the group who will be target of your policies? Caravan dwellers? Do you not see that identifying everyone who has a shared characteristic (let us say living in a caravan) as having the same behavioral traits is problematic? Would you do the same if the shared characteristic was colour or national origin?
Edited by Breadvan72 on Saturday 26th July 14:53
the s.59 option is an interesting one , however like many of these things the level of resourcing needed to successfully seize vehicles would be problematic -given the usual excuses given as to why the police do not persue enquiries against DAYLs - there's no 'tools of the trade' get out clause either ...
add in the principled' a right-on yoghurt knitters ( I bet their attitude might change if the DAYLS arrived on their doorstep andf it becomes a nightmare - especially given the difficulties in passing on the costs of such invasions ...
It's the 'fk-you' attitude of the traveller scum that causes the problem. They are like a plague.
Let's imagine that there's an alternative universe where travellers arrive somewhere, set up camp and immediately make the area nicer by helping the community; clearing up litter, giving their time and manpower to help support local schemes, maybe building something locally that benefits the community and residents. Like foreigners, they pay to cover the costs of any hospital visits they need to make and all in all make the area better for their presence. They would undoubtedly be most welcome - society works when everyone contributes and plays by the rules.
These scum, however, turn up, thieve anything that's not screwed down, plaster the area with litter, st and piss, cause upset and alarm to the local residents and once they've turned a beautiful area into something akin to a warzone they fk off to do the same elsewhere leaving the locals to face the cost of repairing the damage.
They are vile, despicable scum who work on a basis of intimidation and brazenly flouting the law.
k-you' attitude of the traveller scum that causes the problem. They are like a plague.Let's imagine that there's an alternative universe where travellers arrive somewhere, set up camp and immediately make the area nicer by helping the community; clearing up litter, giving their time and manpower to help support local schemes, maybe building something locally that benefits the community and residents. Like foreigners, they pay to cover the costs of any hospital visits they need to make and all in all make the area better for their presence. They would undoubtedly be most welcome - society works when everyone contributes and plays by the rules.
These scum, however, turn up, thieve anything that's not screwed down, plaster the area with litter, s
t and piss, cause upset and alarm to the local residents and once they've turned a beautiful area into something akin to a warzone they fk off to do the same elsewhere leaving the locals to face the cost of repairing the damage.They are vile, despicable scum who work on a basis of intimidation and brazenly flouting the law.
Funk said:
It's the 'fk-you' attitude of the traveller scum that causes the problem. They are like a plague.
Let's imagine that there's an alternative universe where travellers arrive somewhere, set up camp and immediately make the area nicer by helping the community; clearing up litter, giving their time and manpower to help support local schemes, maybe building something locally that benefits the community and residents. Like foreigners, they pay to cover the costs of any hospital visits they need to make and all in all make the area better for their presence. They would undoubtedly be most welcome - society works when everyone contributes and plays by the rules.
These scum, however, turn up, thieve anything that's not screwed down, plaster the area with litter, st and piss, cause upset and alarm to the local residents and once they've turned a beautiful area into something akin to a warzone they fk off to do the same elsewhere leaving the locals to face the cost of repairing the damage.
here in lays the problem k-you' attitude of the traveller scum that causes the problem. They are like a plague.Let's imagine that there's an alternative universe where travellers arrive somewhere, set up camp and immediately make the area nicer by helping the community; clearing up litter, giving their time and manpower to help support local schemes, maybe building something locally that benefits the community and residents. Like foreigners, they pay to cover the costs of any hospital visits they need to make and all in all make the area better for their presence. They would undoubtedly be most welcome - society works when everyone contributes and plays by the rules.
These scum, however, turn up, thieve anything that's not screwed down, plaster the area with litter, s
t and piss, cause upset and alarm to the local residents and once they've turned a beautiful area into something akin to a warzone they fk off to do the same elsewhere leaving the locals to face the cost of repairing the damage.put 'traditional' travellers ona patch of waste ground it'll be no worse when they leave and probably better if they stay for any period of time , ditto if you let the crusties on...
let the DAYLs on and it;s be wrecked in hours , the only way to wreck a patch of land quickers is to allow a Barryboys on for a 'crooz'...
Edited by mph1977 on Saturday 26th July 16:23
Breadvan72 said:
Also, how do you classify between the traveller who is a contributor to society and the traveller who isn't?
Those of you who talk of culls and of forced detention and forced labour: how do you identify the group who will be target of your policies?
Those of you who talk of culls and of forced detention and forced labour: how do you identify the group who will be target of your policies?
Funk said:
It's the 'fk-you' attitude of the traveller scum that causes the problem. They are like a plague.
……..
These scum, however, turn up, thieve anything that's not screwed down, plaster the area with litter, st and piss, cause upset and alarm to the local residents and once they've turned a beautiful area into something akin to a warzone they fk off to do the same elsewhere leaving the locals to face the cost of repairing the damage.
They are vile, despicable scum who work on a basis of intimidation and brazenly flouting the law.
BV, I take the underlying points you are making, but Funk's description above could not be more accurate, and this makes them blatantly obvious and extremely simple to identify, and to differentiate from other groups. Sure we can't eradicate them, of course not, but oh that we could. Unfortunately, for some bizarre reason everyone, EVERYONE, is scared of them (and I include all the relevant authorities in that group) and therefore they continue their activities at will and wherever it suits them. If you, or anyone else, have not had direct experience of these people then I would understand how you might feel that some of the views here are somewhat extreme but I can positively assure that if you do have the misfortune to encounter them first-hand you will soon understand the strength of feeling. I live perhaps 300 yards from this lot and yet I have been going around outside concealing or chaining down anything of the slightest value which I wish to retain ownership of, because I know what will happen if I don't.k-you' attitude of the traveller scum that causes the problem. They are like a plague.……..
These scum, however, turn up, thieve anything that's not screwed down, plaster the area with litter, s
t and piss, cause upset and alarm to the local residents and once they've turned a beautiful area into something akin to a warzone they fk off to do the same elsewhere leaving the locals to face the cost of repairing the damage.They are vile, despicable scum who work on a basis of intimidation and brazenly flouting the law.
Coincidentally (some may say carelessly!) I had a run-in with a completely separate group of exactly the same breed earlier this week. I tried to cycle past another encampment, elsewhere, whereupon my (right of) way was blocked by a number of small children and two dogs. Now, I'm of mature years and I have the PH-requisite build; however, this did not stop the group of children issuing direct threats against me ("you're not allowed here (I am) and we're going to set this dog on you if you move") and when I responded to the negative, a number of adults appeared, obviously having waited for the kids to stop someone and kick something off from which they could then "spring to their children's defence".
CAPP0 said:
Meantime the vermin continue to drive across the green (why, why, why why are they not being served with S.59s? Do it twice then take the vehicles off them? I bet I couldn't ride my enduro bike across the green once without being ticketed?) and flip us all the bird.
I grew up in Wiltshire during the 70s/80s.Every summer we had hippy convoys headed for Stonehenge where pretty much none of the vehicles had tax, MOT or white diesel. When I asked why they were allowed to get away with this, it was explained to me:
They lived in those vehicles. They'd be a pain for a week or so around the solstice then they'd move on elsewhere. If their vehicles were confiscated then the local council would have to accommodate large numbers of homeless d
heads for a long period of time. Based on this, it was decided that it was easier to let them break a few laws that everyone else had to obey.The system is only effective against those who abide by it.
Since I posted that, I had the opportunity to take a PCSO to task over this (coincidentally, I was on my enduro bike on the way home from a run out). Standing next to me and watching a 14-plate white Audi drive across the green, he gave me a very similar explanation for his inaction in the face of my demand to nick the : those vehicles tow childrens' homes (yeah right, well fk off back to your brick-built homes in Ireland then) and therefore if the police confiscated the vehicles, there would be welfare issues as the children could not "use their homes".
It's fkn outrageous but as you say, a failure to play by the rules seems to imply that the rules are not therefore applied.
: those vehicles tow childrens' homes (yeah right, well fk off back to your brick-built homes in Ireland then) and therefore if the police confiscated the vehicles, there would be welfare issues as the children could not "use their homes". It's fkn outrageous but as you say, a failure to play by the rules seems to imply that the rules are not therefore applied.
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