Vosa & driving a van as a service vehicle
Discussion
Hello chaps.
I'm beginning to wish I'd stayed driving a car, no matter how useful the van is.
I work as an electronic engineer, I travel to factories and repair machine control circuits, drives, fit systems, design systems, write software etc etc etc.
Vosa seem to be getting a little serious about vans these days, and I've been given a leaflet about staying legal whilst using your van, and it was suggested I look at these :
https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules
It is complicated, but I think I break these.
I don't and never have, keep/kept any record of driving hours.
I am both employed and self employed.
Anyone in the know regarding this commercial stuff, I may just end up going back to a car/estate car, where I can do as I wish.
I'm beginning to wish I'd stayed driving a car, no matter how useful the van is.
I work as an electronic engineer, I travel to factories and repair machine control circuits, drives, fit systems, design systems, write software etc etc etc.
Vosa seem to be getting a little serious about vans these days, and I've been given a leaflet about staying legal whilst using your van, and it was suggested I look at these :
https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules
It is complicated, but I think I break these.
I don't and never have, keep/kept any record of driving hours.
I am both employed and self employed.
Anyone in the know regarding this commercial stuff, I may just end up going back to a car/estate car, where I can do as I wish.
The fleet I used to run operated under British Domestic rules. Vans have always been subject to it as far as I'm away, although VOSA were never that bothered by it.
It's fairly simple. Drive less than 4 hours per day (or in any one day) and the rules don't apply for that day.
Drive more than 4 hours in a day and your duty limit becomes 16 hours (I'm sure this used to be 11 hours).
Maximum driving time in any one day is 10 hours.
There are a few other details about overnight rest periods and reduced rest.
To be fair, I think the maximum driving time is pretty fair, 10 hours is a long time to be behind the wheel, doing this regularly could see some detrimental fatigue effects setting in.
In fact, 16 hours is enough to be doing more than once or twice a week, again speaking from experience.
You can get a logbook in which you record your daily activities. Only takes 30 seconds to fill out a day's report. I remember frantically filling in 2 weeks worth while a VOSA officer was checking my licence and vehicle over, although it was an HGV so I thought they might take it a bit more seriously (they didn't back then).
It's fairly simple. Drive less than 4 hours per day (or in any one day) and the rules don't apply for that day.
Drive more than 4 hours in a day and your duty limit becomes 16 hours (I'm sure this used to be 11 hours).
Maximum driving time in any one day is 10 hours.
There are a few other details about overnight rest periods and reduced rest.
To be fair, I think the maximum driving time is pretty fair, 10 hours is a long time to be behind the wheel, doing this regularly could see some detrimental fatigue effects setting in.
In fact, 16 hours is enough to be doing more than once or twice a week, again speaking from experience.
You can get a logbook in which you record your daily activities. Only takes 30 seconds to fill out a day's report. I remember frantically filling in 2 weeks worth while a VOSA officer was checking my licence and vehicle over, although it was an HGV so I thought they might take it a bit more seriously (they didn't back then).
LoonR1 said:
You're getting seriously into finding problems for yourself aren't you? I've got a van that I use mainly for moving my track / race bike to and from meetings. I don't give a stuff about these rules.
Are you doing it privately? If so, it's irrelevant.As in my post above, no one ever cared about van rules, but if the OP is correct, they seem to be cracking down a bit.
Super Slo Mo said:
LoonR1 said:
You're getting seriously into finding problems for yourself aren't you? I've got a van that I use mainly for moving my track / race bike to and from meetings. I don't give a stuff about these rules.
Are you doing it privately? If so, it's irrelevant.As in my post above, no one ever cared about van rules, but if the OP is correct, they seem to be cracking down a bit.
Come the revolution!!!!!
You start it and I'll join you......at the back.......somewhere........maybe
16 hours I can cope with, 11 hours, which is what I'm reading is far too tight.
A call to Gt Yarmouth, or Greenock, although not every week, will easily eat those driving hours, and leave me a whole 1 hour to work, which isn't enough.
I don't want to be arsed to record driving hours, but if I have to, where do I get the correct logbook from, if you know ?
They are certainly cracking down on vans, I've seen a few being led by vosa galaxys, although they've seemed overweight to me.
A call to Gt Yarmouth, or Greenock, although not every week, will easily eat those driving hours, and leave me a whole 1 hour to work, which isn't enough.
I don't want to be arsed to record driving hours, but if I have to, where do I get the correct logbook from, if you know ?
They are certainly cracking down on vans, I've seen a few being led by vosa galaxys, although they've seemed overweight to me.
I used to use these from the RHA for our recovery trucks.
http://www.rhaonline.co.uk/operator-compliance-sta...
A few drivers I know use a diary to keep record.
http://www.rhaonline.co.uk/operator-compliance-sta...
A few drivers I know use a diary to keep record.
Nigel Worc's said:
16 hours I can cope with, 11 hours, which is what I'm reading is far too tight.
A call to Gt Yarmouth, or Greenock, although not every week, will easily eat those driving hours, and leave me a whole 1 hour to work, which isn't enough.
I don't want to be arsed to record driving hours, but if I have to, where do I get the correct logbook from, if you know ?
They are certainly cracking down on vans, I've seen a few being led by vosa galaxys, although they've seemed overweight to me.
Sorry, I read it wrong. The 16 hours applies to passenger carrying vehicles, which I think is madness when a van is only allowed 11 hours. To me it should be the other way around.A call to Gt Yarmouth, or Greenock, although not every week, will easily eat those driving hours, and leave me a whole 1 hour to work, which isn't enough.
I don't want to be arsed to record driving hours, but if I have to, where do I get the correct logbook from, if you know ?
They are certainly cracking down on vans, I've seen a few being led by vosa galaxys, although they've seemed overweight to me.
So yes, it's 11 hours.
First result on Google found me this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Drivers-Book-exempt-tachog...
Same thing is also available here: http://www.tachodisc.co.uk/tachograph-products/rec...
Hope this helps. Feel free to PM if you want any more details. I used to run a mixed fleet under British Domestic Rules, so have a vague idea of what is required.
Nigel Worc's said:
Hello chaps.
I'm beginning to wish I'd stayed driving a car, no matter how useful the van is.
I work as an electronic engineer, I travel to factories and repair machine control circuits, drives, fit systems, design systems, write software etc etc etc.
Vosa seem to be getting a little serious about vans these days, and I've been given a leaflet about staying legal whilst using your van, and it was suggested I look at these :
https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules
It is complicated, but I think I break these.
I don't and never have, keep/kept any record of driving hours.
I am both employed and self employed.
Anyone in the know regarding this commercial stuff, I may just end up going back to a car/estate car, where I can do as I wish.
What is the definition of 'goods vehicle' in the link to drivers hours?I'm beginning to wish I'd stayed driving a car, no matter how useful the van is.
I work as an electronic engineer, I travel to factories and repair machine control circuits, drives, fit systems, design systems, write software etc etc etc.
Vosa seem to be getting a little serious about vans these days, and I've been given a leaflet about staying legal whilst using your van, and it was suggested I look at these :
https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules
It is complicated, but I think I break these.
I don't and never have, keep/kept any record of driving hours.
I am both employed and self employed.
Anyone in the know regarding this commercial stuff, I may just end up going back to a car/estate car, where I can do as I wish.
VOSA..arrrggghhh, once got pulled with the race trailer in my old van. All they found were two nuts fitted the wrong way round. Never notivced myself, but not a problem thinks I, will just remove and re-fit, but I had no tolls and the vans tool ki8t didn't fit. So I asked the polite Vosa guy to loan me something. His response? sorry Sir, cant loan out tools. So I had to wait an hour for the AA to remove and re-fit two bolts !!!!!!
"Duty time
If you work as a driver for a company, duty time is any working time. If you’re self-employed, duty time is only time you spend driving the vehicle or doing other work related to the vehicle or its load."
So if I'm reading that correctly, if you are self employed there is only a restriction on your 'duty' time if it involves driving and/or is specific to the load you carry.
So, in the case of driving with tools, are the tools you may/may not use but are in the van considered to be the "load" and hence any work you do at the end of the journey is part of the "duty" even if you just use one screwdriver? But if you borrow tools from someone on site then there is no restriction in how long your "duty".
If you work as a driver for a company, duty time is any working time. If you’re self-employed, duty time is only time you spend driving the vehicle or doing other work related to the vehicle or its load."
So if I'm reading that correctly, if you are self employed there is only a restriction on your 'duty' time if it involves driving and/or is specific to the load you carry.
So, in the case of driving with tools, are the tools you may/may not use but are in the van considered to be the "load" and hence any work you do at the end of the journey is part of the "duty" even if you just use one screwdriver? But if you borrow tools from someone on site then there is no restriction in how long your "duty".
I would say around 90% of pro drivers who are outside of EU hours rules do not stick to GB hours rules.
Your local (insert courier company) driver will do 14+ hour days.
The vast majority of van drivers have no clue they even exist.
My advice is to keep things reasonable and you wont have any problems.
You are only required to keep records if you drive an licenced vehicle (as in an OL).
Even then you have to drive for 4 hours or more in any period AND outside 50KM radius of home base / OC.
Then you need records.
HTH.
Your local (insert courier company) driver will do 14+ hour days.
The vast majority of van drivers have no clue they even exist.
My advice is to keep things reasonable and you wont have any problems.
You are only required to keep records if you drive an licenced vehicle (as in an OL).
Even then you have to drive for 4 hours or more in any period AND outside 50KM radius of home base / OC.
Then you need records.
HTH.
I think you might be reading too much into these rules. Surely they're for Van Drivers, that is people who drive vans for a living, couriers for instance.
Not electronics engineers that just happen to use a van to move from job to job. The only time they would apply is if you were taking items you work on to be repaired at a different location to where they were when they broke.
PH ID 'ROG' is the man to ask about this.
Not electronics engineers that just happen to use a van to move from job to job. The only time they would apply is if you were taking items you work on to be repaired at a different location to where they were when they broke.
PH ID 'ROG' is the man to ask about this.
Its all over the top now and picking on some contractors.
The police and vosa never seem to agree.
Vosa stopped one of 7 5.5tn brand merc flat beads being used for wiltshire council works. They crawled all over one and found that the stick on bonnet front number plate which was located due the front snow plough attachment. They found the supplier hadnt used a reflective material so the fleet was parked whilst plates were sourced and mounted.
Then a couple of month later after the local roads police have seen these all over Wiltshire for months stopped one and decided the snow plogh mount which was flush with the front bumper was top dangerous for a pedestrian to go under. The whole fleet is grounded again whilst soft plastic covers are sort. Then when we got the ploughes ready for winter maintenance called the local polcie vosa and dft in and asked if any of them had an issue with them as they were the first ones to be used outside of germany.
No problems, just seems no one agency has a clue what the others do.
The police and vosa never seem to agree.
Vosa stopped one of 7 5.5tn brand merc flat beads being used for wiltshire council works. They crawled all over one and found that the stick on bonnet front number plate which was located due the front snow plough attachment. They found the supplier hadnt used a reflective material so the fleet was parked whilst plates were sourced and mounted.
Then a couple of month later after the local roads police have seen these all over Wiltshire for months stopped one and decided the snow plogh mount which was flush with the front bumper was top dangerous for a pedestrian to go under. The whole fleet is grounded again whilst soft plastic covers are sort. Then when we got the ploughes ready for winter maintenance called the local polcie vosa and dft in and asked if any of them had an issue with them as they were the first ones to be used outside of germany.
No problems, just seems no one agency has a clue what the others do.
951TSE said:
I think you might be reading too much into these rules. Surely they're for Van Drivers, that is people who drive vans for a living, couriers for instance.
Not electronics engineers that just happen to use a van to move from job to job. The only time they would apply is if you were taking items you work on to be repaired at a different location to where they were when they broke.
PH ID 'ROG' is the man to ask about this.
Interesting point, but no. Not electronics engineers that just happen to use a van to move from job to job. The only time they would apply is if you were taking items you work on to be repaired at a different location to where they were when they broke.
PH ID 'ROG' is the man to ask about this.
Unfortunately it's a blanket rule that applies to anyone using a van as part of their job, delivery driver or not. Ours were engineer's vans, not too dissimilar to the OP's circumstances.
Phil Dicky said:
So I asked the polite Vosa guy to loan me something. His response? sorry Sir, cant loan out tools. So I had to wait an hour for the AA to remove and re-fit two bolts !!!!!!
Reminds me of a trainer at our place, To save a rota call out and a bill for over a £100 for a muppet with no recovery they assisted someone who couldn't get their wheel nuts off, Trainer bent the wheelbrace in process of doing it.Fast forward a couple of months and a bill for £5 to replace the wheelbrace ended up on the blokes desk after going all around 3 organisations to find the 'guilty party'
A colleague was reported by a passing recovery guy after being seen assisting a woman with toddlers change a wheel in the P!ssing rain.
Maybe there's a reason they won't lend their tools out as the next thread on PH would be 'I lent a guys socket set and it slipped causing me to scrape my knuckles? Who can I sue ?'
At present there are no legal rules on how long you can drive a van, which IIRC is up to 3.5 tons Gross weight. The links all refer to HGV which is any vehicle that require a tachograph, which some of the bigger vans will fall into.
The EU would love to make all vans have Tachographs but so far common sense has prevailed and this has been rejected, but it is still on the back burner from the road safety lobby who spout that most accidents are people driving for work. Their definition of driving for work would include company cars as well which they also want to include, hence they have got nowhere so far
Now having said all that the police can take action if they suspect you are too tired to drive. Remember the guy who went of the road derailing a train, he was fully legal but when they investigated how little sleep he had, it went from a tragic accident to manslaughter IIRC.
Any driver should make sure that they get rest breaks and are fit to drive at all times.
The EU would love to make all vans have Tachographs but so far common sense has prevailed and this has been rejected, but it is still on the back burner from the road safety lobby who spout that most accidents are people driving for work. Their definition of driving for work would include company cars as well which they also want to include, hence they have got nowhere so far
Now having said all that the police can take action if they suspect you are too tired to drive. Remember the guy who went of the road derailing a train, he was fully legal but when they investigated how little sleep he had, it went from a tragic accident to manslaughter IIRC.
Any driver should make sure that they get rest breaks and are fit to drive at all times.
spaximus said:
At present there are no legal rules on how long you can drive a van, which IIRC is up to 3.5 tons Gross weight. The links all refer to HGV which is any vehicle that require a tachograph, which some of the bigger vans will fall into.
The EU would love to make all vans have Tachographs but so far common sense has prevailed and this has been rejected, but it is still on the back burner from the road safety lobby who spout that most accidents are people driving for work. Their definition of driving for work would include company cars as well which they also want to include, hence they have got nowhere so far
Now having said all that the police can take action if they suspect you are too tired to drive. Remember the guy who went of the road derailing a train, he was fully legal but when they investigated how little sleep he had, it went from a tragic accident to manslaughter IIRC.
Any driver should make sure that they get rest breaks and are fit to drive at all times.
Without wishing to be confrontational, you ought to check the rules first.The EU would love to make all vans have Tachographs but so far common sense has prevailed and this has been rejected, but it is still on the back burner from the road safety lobby who spout that most accidents are people driving for work. Their definition of driving for work would include company cars as well which they also want to include, hence they have got nowhere so far
Now having said all that the police can take action if they suspect you are too tired to drive. Remember the guy who went of the road derailing a train, he was fully legal but when they investigated how little sleep he had, it went from a tragic accident to manslaughter IIRC.
Any driver should make sure that they get rest breaks and are fit to drive at all times.
There's no lower weight limit to the GB Domestic Rules, it's any goods vehicle that's exempt from EU rules.
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