Accident in rented villa
Discussion
My in laws came on holiday with us a couple of weeks ago, to a rented Villa in Kefalonia, owned by an English couple. The rental agreement states that the contract is under English Law.
On the day of arrival, my almost 75 year old father in law, walked in to the downstairs bathroom and had a nasty fall on a flooded wet tiled floor, due to a leak from the sink, which had spilled over the floor. He cut his leg, bruised his hip and, as he fell, banged his head on a window and cracked the glass. It could have been an awful lot worse.
To add to the issue, the Villa owner took 4 days to get someone to repair the leak, accuses us of removing a 'missing' washer from the sink and has charged us £50 for repairs to the window. He said there was no leak when he left the place a few days earlier. The sink is housed in a vanity unit so it is pretty daft to suggest that we'd tamper with it.
There were a few other issues too but the owners are being pretty unpleasant about the whole thing and denying anything and everything that their agent was aware of at the time.
Now, had they been more reasonable, we wouldn't have been so annoyed but they have really pissed us off now and, much as I despise these accident chasers, I just wonder if my F-I-L should talk to one and if they would do anything about it.
It has nothing to do with the money, just the attitude of the owners.
On the day of arrival, my almost 75 year old father in law, walked in to the downstairs bathroom and had a nasty fall on a flooded wet tiled floor, due to a leak from the sink, which had spilled over the floor. He cut his leg, bruised his hip and, as he fell, banged his head on a window and cracked the glass. It could have been an awful lot worse.
To add to the issue, the Villa owner took 4 days to get someone to repair the leak, accuses us of removing a 'missing' washer from the sink and has charged us £50 for repairs to the window. He said there was no leak when he left the place a few days earlier. The sink is housed in a vanity unit so it is pretty daft to suggest that we'd tamper with it.
There were a few other issues too but the owners are being pretty unpleasant about the whole thing and denying anything and everything that their agent was aware of at the time.
Now, had they been more reasonable, we wouldn't have been so annoyed but they have really pissed us off now and, much as I despise these accident chasers, I just wonder if my F-I-L should talk to one and if they would do anything about it.
It has nothing to do with the money, just the attitude of the owners.
Do you know, I'm not really sure.
Personally, I've said just drop the matter but he is really angry at the guy's attitude to his fall and his accusation of us 'tampering' with the plumbing.
I suspect that he wants to let the guy know that he has to deal with issues rather than be so aggressive to his clients and simply expect to get away with it.
As it is, he's simply held on to some of the deposit and been really arrogant and rude about it.
Personally, I've said just drop the matter but he is really angry at the guy's attitude to his fall and his accusation of us 'tampering' with the plumbing.
I suspect that he wants to let the guy know that he has to deal with issues rather than be so aggressive to his clients and simply expect to get away with it.
As it is, he's simply held on to some of the deposit and been really arrogant and rude about it.
Sorry to hear your Dad got hurt but English contract or not, it's as worthless as the piece of paper it's printed on. Sorry.
If you are in another country, you have to abide by the rules of that country. If the contract is as worthless as it sounds, just don't pay if you want to be spiteful.
Otherwise once again, I'm not sure what you actually want from this.
If you are in another country, you have to abide by the rules of that country. If the contract is as worthless as it sounds, just don't pay if you want to be spiteful.
Otherwise once again, I'm not sure what you actually want from this.
The previous poster means well but displays his ignorance of the law (this being S, P&L, that is normal).
The contract is not worthless and if parties choose to govern a relationship by English law even when the subject matter of the contract is located outside the jurisdiction, they can usually do so. The contract was for a holiday rental and so impliedly provided for a peaceful and relaxing time (Jackson v Swan tours and all that). The owner was obliged to have the property in a safe and usable condition. There has arguably been a breach of that obligation.
It is true that a claim based not on contract but on tort (non contractual civil obligations) would usually be governed by the law of the place where the incident occurred, BUT if both parties to the claim are habitually resident in the same jurisdiction (eg within the UK) then the Rome 2 Regulation would permit a claim to be made under the law of that jurisdiction.
Having said that, taking on the hassle of a claim just in order to educate the owner as to his bad attitude is possibly a bad idea, as others have noted.
The contract is not worthless and if parties choose to govern a relationship by English law even when the subject matter of the contract is located outside the jurisdiction, they can usually do so. The contract was for a holiday rental and so impliedly provided for a peaceful and relaxing time (Jackson v Swan tours and all that). The owner was obliged to have the property in a safe and usable condition. There has arguably been a breach of that obligation.
It is true that a claim based not on contract but on tort (non contractual civil obligations) would usually be governed by the law of the place where the incident occurred, BUT if both parties to the claim are habitually resident in the same jurisdiction (eg within the UK) then the Rome 2 Regulation would permit a claim to be made under the law of that jurisdiction.
Having said that, taking on the hassle of a claim just in order to educate the owner as to his bad attitude is possibly a bad idea, as others have noted.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 31st July 09:09
beanbag said:
Sorry to hear your Dad got hurt but English contract or not, it's as worthless as the piece of paper it's printed on. Sorry.
If you are in another country, you have to abide by the rules of that country. If the contract is as worthless as it sounds, just don't pay if you want to be spiteful.
Otherwise once again, I'm not sure what you actually want from this.
Not entirely accurate though your conclusion is right - the rental agreement will be covered by English law if it states so in the contract.If you are in another country, you have to abide by the rules of that country. If the contract is as worthless as it sounds, just don't pay if you want to be spiteful.
Otherwise once again, I'm not sure what you actually want from this.
That has no bearing on a private action regarding an unconnected matter, however.
Breadvan72 said:
The previous poster means well but displays his ignorance of the law (this being S, P&L, that is normal).
The contract is not worthless and if parties choose to govern a relationship by English law even when the subject matter of the contract is located outside the jurisdiction, they can usually do so. The contract was for a holiday rental and so impliedly provided for a peaceful and relaxing time (Jackson v Swan tours and all that). The owner was obliged to have the property in a safe and usable condition. There has arguably been a breach of that obligation.
It is true that a claim based not on contract but on tort (non contractual civil obligations) would be governed by the law of the place where the incident occurred, but if that place was in the EU than the Rome 2 Regulation would permit a claim to be made in the UK if both parties are in the UK.
Having said that, taking on the hassle of a claim just in order to educate the owner as to his bad attitude is possibly a bad idea, as others have noted.
I agree with you entirely and really struggle to see what my Father in Law may hope to achieve, other than possibly compensation. The contract is not worthless and if parties choose to govern a relationship by English law even when the subject matter of the contract is located outside the jurisdiction, they can usually do so. The contract was for a holiday rental and so impliedly provided for a peaceful and relaxing time (Jackson v Swan tours and all that). The owner was obliged to have the property in a safe and usable condition. There has arguably been a breach of that obligation.
It is true that a claim based not on contract but on tort (non contractual civil obligations) would be governed by the law of the place where the incident occurred, but if that place was in the EU than the Rome 2 Regulation would permit a claim to be made in the UK if both parties are in the UK.
Having said that, taking on the hassle of a claim just in order to educate the owner as to his bad attitude is possibly a bad idea, as others have noted.
I'm not sure how you can value a fall with no serious injury, although it could well have been.
Thanks!
Tiled floors in bathrooms are always a big risk if/when they inevitably get wet for whatever reason.You always need to put towels on the floor to walk on before entering and then leave them there.
The same applies in the case of walking around on the tiled floors used throughout most types of houses etc in the Mediterranean areas.They need to be kept dry with no wet feet at all times especially in the case of walking on them without shoes.
The same applies in the case of walking around on the tiled floors used throughout most types of houses etc in the Mediterranean areas.They need to be kept dry with no wet feet at all times especially in the case of walking on them without shoes.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 30th July 16:36
Meoricin said:
beanbag said:
Sorry to hear your Dad got hurt but English contract or not, it's as worthless as the piece of paper it's printed on. Sorry.
If you are in another country, you have to abide by the rules of that country. If the contract is as worthless as it sounds, just don't pay if you want to be spiteful.
Otherwise once again, I'm not sure what you actually want from this.
Not entirely accurate though your conclusion is right - the rental agreement will be covered by English law if it states so in the contract.If you are in another country, you have to abide by the rules of that country. If the contract is as worthless as it sounds, just don't pay if you want to be spiteful.
Otherwise once again, I'm not sure what you actually want from this.
That has no bearing on a private action regarding an unconnected matter, however.
But how can UK law apply in Greece? The incident happened in Greece, so there comes under Greek law. If a contract states "UK law", it's nothing more than a marketing gimmick. UK law has zero bearing in Greece and the contract is worthless.
We get this type of thing all the time where I live. In the Spain, many people rent their homes "under UK law", but whenever they try to enforce it, the owners simply laugh and walk away. It's a marketing gimmick to add confidence to the renter. The number of people caught out on this astounds me.
You are wrong. Why express legal opinions when you appear to have no legal training? The subject of conflict of laws (or private international law) is large and complex, and, with respect, not really a subject for amateurs, but, in summary, parties are in many (not all) situations free to choose that a contract will be governed by the law of a particular country, even if the contract is about something that is happening outside that country. Various international conventions may override the choice, and different countries have their own systems for recognising or not recognising the conflicts rules of other jurisdictions.
When looking at non-contractual obligations, such as the obligation of A to exercise care towards B, then local law will usually (but not always) apply (lex loci delicti to use the Latin jargon that populates conflicts of laws discussions).
If the father in law was the contracting party, he may have enforceable rights under the contract. If he was not, his rights will be governed by Greek tort law (tort, or delict, is the term for a civil wrong) UNLESS (this is important) both he and the owner of the property are habitually resident in the same country. In that case, the law of that country will apply. Thus English tort law could apply in this case. This is the effect of the Rome 2 Regulation, an EU instrument as to applicable law in non contractual situations.
When looking at non-contractual obligations, such as the obligation of A to exercise care towards B, then local law will usually (but not always) apply (lex loci delicti to use the Latin jargon that populates conflicts of laws discussions).
If the father in law was the contracting party, he may have enforceable rights under the contract. If he was not, his rights will be governed by Greek tort law (tort, or delict, is the term for a civil wrong) UNLESS (this is important) both he and the owner of the property are habitually resident in the same country. In that case, the law of that country will apply. Thus English tort law could apply in this case. This is the effect of the Rome 2 Regulation, an EU instrument as to applicable law in non contractual situations.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 31st July 09:11
beanbag said:
Meoricin said:
beanbag said:
Sorry to hear your Dad got hurt but English contract or not, it's as worthless as the piece of paper it's printed on. Sorry.
If you are in another country, you have to abide by the rules of that country. If the contract is as worthless as it sounds, just don't pay if you want to be spiteful.
Otherwise once again, I'm not sure what you actually want from this.
Not entirely accurate though your conclusion is right - the rental agreement will be covered by English law if it states so in the contract.If you are in another country, you have to abide by the rules of that country. If the contract is as worthless as it sounds, just don't pay if you want to be spiteful.
Otherwise once again, I'm not sure what you actually want from this.
That has no bearing on a private action regarding an unconnected matter, however.
But how can UK law apply in Greece? The incident happened in Greece, so there comes under Greek law. If a contract states "UK law", it's nothing more than a marketing gimmick. UK law has zero bearing in Greece and the contract is worthless.
We get this type of thing all the time where I live. In the Spain, many people rent their homes "under UK law", but whenever they try to enforce it, the owners simply laugh and walk away. It's a marketing gimmick to add confidence to the renter. The number of people caught out on this astounds me.
UK Law?? There is no such thing - English law and Scottish law exist but not UK.
Contracts arranged by English law are not worthless in Scotland and vice versa, contracts don't suddenly become worthless in other countries.
IANAL but I'm a bit more informed than this guy.
I add that one of the UK's biggest invisible export streams can be observed (so it's not completely invisible) at the Commercial Court in London, where parties with no connection to England litigate furiously in front of an English Judge about a contract governed by English law that deals with things intended to happen many miles from England, all this generating millions in revenues and taxes and providing employment for thousands. This happens because English law and English Courts are seen as robust, efficient and fair, at least in comparison with rival offerings from other countries.
Within the EU, choice of law and choice of jurisdiction clauses are subject to various Conventions and rules, and may be overriden by those (there are, for example special rules about employment contracts), and the enforceability of a choice of law or jurisdiction will depend on context.
Within the EU, choice of law and choice of jurisdiction clauses are subject to various Conventions and rules, and may be overriden by those (there are, for example special rules about employment contracts), and the enforceability of a choice of law or jurisdiction will depend on context.
Whilst I am 100% on the 'forget trying to sue them, life is too short' camp I do note that the LL is still holding back part of the deposit.
I would think that a suitably worded "You claim this, we could claim that, let us all grow up and you pay back remainder of the deposit and we will all be wiser" might do the trick.
None of you want to be involved in any form of litigation but the LL might just wake up to the fact that he has a stroppy retired person on his hands who will vicariously cause him sleepless nights via ambulance chasers if he doesn't grow up...
As you will note in many threads it's not always if you win or lose any claim. The costs in terms of money, time and stress in being involved in dealing with one is worth good money to many to avoid.
I would think that a suitably worded "You claim this, we could claim that, let us all grow up and you pay back remainder of the deposit and we will all be wiser" might do the trick.
None of you want to be involved in any form of litigation but the LL might just wake up to the fact that he has a stroppy retired person on his hands who will vicariously cause him sleepless nights via ambulance chasers if he doesn't grow up...
As you will note in many threads it's not always if you win or lose any claim. The costs in terms of money, time and stress in being involved in dealing with one is worth good money to many to avoid.
Davel said:
My in laws came on holiday with us a couple of weeks ago, to a rented Villa in Kefalonia, owned by an English couple. The rental agreement states that the contract is under English Law.
On the day of arrival, my almost 75 year old father in law, walked in to the downstairs bathroom and had a nasty fall on a flooded wet tiled floor, due to a leak from the sink, which had spilled over the floor. He cut his leg, bruised his hip and, as he fell, banged his head on a window and cracked the glass. It could have been an awful lot worse.
To add to the issue, the Villa owner took 4 days to get someone to repair the leak, accuses us of removing a 'missing' washer from the sink and has charged us £50 for repairs to the window. He said there was no leak when he left the place a few days earlier. The sink is housed in a vanity unit so it is pretty daft to suggest that we'd tamper with it.
There were a few other issues too but the owners are being pretty unpleasant about the whole thing and denying anything and everything that their agent was aware of at the time.
Now, had they been more reasonable, we wouldn't have been so annoyed but they have really pissed us off now and, much as I despise these accident chasers, I just wonder if my F-I-L should talk to one and if they would do anything about it.
It has nothing to do with the money, just the attitude of the owners.
Sounds like a right one... usually threatening to throw the suits at them sorts his sort out.On the day of arrival, my almost 75 year old father in law, walked in to the downstairs bathroom and had a nasty fall on a flooded wet tiled floor, due to a leak from the sink, which had spilled over the floor. He cut his leg, bruised his hip and, as he fell, banged his head on a window and cracked the glass. It could have been an awful lot worse.
To add to the issue, the Villa owner took 4 days to get someone to repair the leak, accuses us of removing a 'missing' washer from the sink and has charged us £50 for repairs to the window. He said there was no leak when he left the place a few days earlier. The sink is housed in a vanity unit so it is pretty daft to suggest that we'd tamper with it.
There were a few other issues too but the owners are being pretty unpleasant about the whole thing and denying anything and everything that their agent was aware of at the time.
Now, had they been more reasonable, we wouldn't have been so annoyed but they have really pissed us off now and, much as I despise these accident chasers, I just wonder if my F-I-L should talk to one and if they would do anything about it.
It has nothing to do with the money, just the attitude of the owners.
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