Pulling out into overtaking car - who's at fault?

Pulling out into overtaking car - who's at fault?

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TheInternet

Original Poster:

4,703 posts

162 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
A green car and a red car have had an accident. The green car was passing a stationary vehicle, whilst the driver of the red car pulled out of a minor road without checking to their left.

The junction to the minor road has normal give way markings not shown in the diagram below. The green car was travelling at under 25mph.


kiethton

13,883 posts

179 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
I'd say red car at fault as was established on the road with right of way

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

134 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
depending on circumstances, if the green car signaled to occupy the other side of the road (particularly where the red car wasn't yet at the t junction), did so and the red car went into it, I'd say the red car was at fault but I am not a lawyer.

There may be other circumstances which make it less clear cut.

daveenty

2,357 posts

209 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
Red car looked right, saw nothing coming so went?

Give way means exactly that. Doesn't matter where the traffic is coming from, should have looked.

Trophybloo

1,207 posts

186 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
TheInternet said:
A green car and a red car have had an accident. The green car was passing a stationary vehicle, whilst the driver of the red car pulled out of a minor road without checking to their left.

The junction to the minor road has normal give way markings not shown in the diagram below. The green car was travelling at under 25mph.

The duty is always on the car emerging from the junction to ensure the carriage way is safe to join. I can't see the picture but for a car going 25mph to have been hit would indicate lack of dc&a on the part of the emerging driver, even if the car overtaking the stationary vehicle, as is common in many narrow urban streets, had crossed the centre line.

For the record I was a passenger when my OH was hit by a guy emerging from a give way to cross a dual carriageway to the central res in order to turn right. Just kept coming oblivious and with no room to squeeze through the closing gap ahead my OH braked hard. He still hit her front n/s wing. Then tried to make up some cock and bull story that he saw my OH indicating left. I took loads of position photos and photos of the damage to the OH's car, emphasising the clear give way that the other car had ignored and unrestricted view (had his side window been correctly demisted), when incidently the OH was in the right hand lane preparing to turn right further up the road. Result no loss of NCB and full value for written off car (amazing amount of damage!)


Edited by Trophybloo on Tuesday 5th August 13:38


Edited by Trophybloo on Tuesday 5th August 13:44

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

134 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
I've nearly had a similar incident as the green car in that example with a red idiot not looking at a blind corner (with a junction on it) for them and barrelling through at a ridiculous speed (probably only 15mph, but there it was completely unsafe). Use of the horn works wonders (also I was going fairly slow knowing what a bad junction it is).

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
Red car on the basis that give way means both directions which involves looking right and looking left.The parked vehicle is also to blame for dangerous parking thereby putting traffic unavoidably on the wrong side of the road through a junction.Had it been an overtaking situation not involving a parked vehicle through the junction that might have been a different matter of both the red and green car possibly being seen to blame.

maxrider1

91 posts

211 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
The idiot that parked opposite a junction?

TheInternet

Original Poster:

4,703 posts

162 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
maxrider1 said:
The idiot that parked opposite a junction?
The parked vehicle was probably legally parked (i.e. over 10m from junction) but large enough (truck) and close enough to cause an issue.

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
maxrider1 said:
The idiot that parked opposite a junction?
+ 1
As above.

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

134 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
TheInternet said:
The parked vehicle was probably legally parked (i.e. over 10m from junction) but large enough (truck) and close enough to cause an issue.
I was going to say this. I know it's not to scale but the parking in the diagram could very, very possibly be totally legal.

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
TheInternet said:
The parked vehicle was probably legally parked (i.e. over 10m from junction) but large enough (truck) and close enough to cause an issue.
That would be a contradiction.Either the vehicle was parked allowing sufficient room for traffic passing it to return to the correct side of the road before the junction or it wasn't.The question in that case being is even 30 feet sufficient to allow a vehicle to pass and return to the correct side of the road before a junction.

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
ModernAndy said:
I was going to say this. I know it's not to scale but the parking in the diagram could very, very possibly be totally legal.
Which would leave the question why was the green car on the wrong side of the road 'if' there was enough room to clear the obstacle and return to the correct side.

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

134 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
XJ Flyer said:
TheInternet said:
The parked vehicle was probably legally parked (i.e. over 10m from junction) but large enough (truck) and close enough to cause an issue.
That would be a contradiction.Either the vehicle was parked allowing sufficient room for traffic passing it to return to the correct side of the road before the junction or it wasn't.The question in that case being is even 30 feet sufficient to allow a vehicle to pass and return to the correct side of the road before a junction.
That's maybe one of the complicating factors. In the diagram there is room for a vehicle to move back in if it were doing a slow enough speed. AFAIA the law states distance in metres, not how much room vehicles would need to move back in.

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

134 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
XJ Flyer said:
Which would leave the question why was the green car on the wrong side of the road 'if' there was enough room to clear the obstacle and return to the correct side.
possibly because a car doing 25mph would need more room to pull back in than the space legally left clear in front of a junction.

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

134 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
perhaps a better question would be, is it reasonable to pull out into a car travelling in your lane while that car is in the process of pulling into their lane after overtaking a stationary vehicle even though they could have done it sooner? On the flip side, is it reasonable to blame an illegally parked vehicle for an easily avoidable accident?

Trophybloo

1,207 posts

186 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
ModernAndy said:
XJ Flyer said:
TheInternet said:
The parked vehicle was probably legally parked (i.e. over 10m from junction) but large enough (truck) and close enough to cause an issue.
That would be a contradiction.Either the vehicle was parked allowing sufficient room for traffic passing it to return to the correct side of the road before the junction or it wasn't.The question in that case being is even 30 feet sufficient to allow a vehicle to pass and return to the correct side of the road before a junction.
That's maybe one of the complicating factors. In the diagram there is room for a vehicle to move back in if it were doing a slow enough speed. AFAIA the law states distance in metres, not how much room vehicles would need to move back in.
Whether or not the green car was travelling on the right side of the carriage way, the red car has the absolute duty to ensure it is safe to emerge before doing so. Without actually obstructed vision (and how many driving tests have been failed emerging under such circumstances) the red car has no defence, and precious little even with vision obstruction!

tenpenceshort

32,880 posts

216 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
I don't think it's so clear cut as to apportion 100% of the damage to one party or the other.

What negligence might the driver of the overtaking car been responsible for? Did they proceed sufficiently cautiously, knowing that vehicles are likely to emerge from the junction? I would have thought a careful driver, to be free from any responsibility, would have been able to stop well before being collided into.

I would argue both parties have been negligent, as the established driver failed to sufficiently take into account the risk of vehicles entering from the junction and the driver entering failed to keep a proper look out when doing so.

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
ModernAndy said:
XJ Flyer said:
Which would leave the question why was the green car on the wrong side of the road 'if' there was enough room to clear the obstacle and return to the correct side.
possibly because a car doing 25mph would need more room to pull back in than the space legally left clear in front of a junction.
And around 25 feet reaction distance plus braking distance to avoid an emerging vehicle.All of which suggests that the legal parking distance combined with the possibility of vehicles emerging from junctions without looking left could be a minefield of grey areas.Resulting in similar issues to that of actually overtaking through a junction.

ModernAndy

2,094 posts

134 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
Trophybloo said:
ModernAndy said:
XJ Flyer said:
TheInternet said:
The parked vehicle was probably legally parked (i.e. over 10m from junction) but large enough (truck) and close enough to cause an issue.
That would be a contradiction.Either the vehicle was parked allowing sufficient room for traffic passing it to return to the correct side of the road before the junction or it wasn't.The question in that case being is even 30 feet sufficient to allow a vehicle to pass and return to the correct side of the road before a junction.
That's maybe one of the complicating factors. In the diagram there is room for a vehicle to move back in if it were doing a slow enough speed. AFAIA the law states distance in metres, not how much room vehicles would need to move back in.
Whether or not the green car was travelling on the right side of the carriage way, the red car has the absolute duty to ensure it is safe to emerge before doing so. Without actually obstructed vision (and how many driving tests have been failed emerging under such circumstances) the red car has no defence, and precious little even with vision obstruction!
That's pretty much how I'd see it. Whether it's as clear as that in law is another matter. I can see insurance companies wanting to go 50/50 on something like this and if I were the driver of the green car I'd want it to be 100% the red driver's fault if the accident was totally unavoidable due to their misguided pulling out.