Police Scotland - Officers routinely carrying guns.

Police Scotland - Officers routinely carrying guns.

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Discussion

Red Devil

13,055 posts

207 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
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jimbop1 said:
Mk3Spitfire said:
It's the image. It makes people feel unsafe, and gives the impression that we are turning into an American-esque country. Which we're not. Yet.
bks! If anything it would make people feel safe. The only people I can see not liking it are those hippy, tosser types you see on you tube sticking a camera in a police mans face and telling them it's a free country.
I'm in full agreement with Mk3Spitfire on this. It does not make me feel safer. Quite the opposite, as daily carry by all officers would imply a general level of threat to the public which I don't believe is warranted. He can defend his own corner, but I resent your cheap shot categorisation of me as a hippy tosser. Maybe you would would have the decency to apologise. From your previous posting history, I rather doubt it so I won't hold my breath waiting.

As it happens I do own a camera and enjoy taking photos, but police officers are not on my list of chosen subjects.

jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
carpetsoiler said:
1) if I got stabbed whilst on duty, then unfortunately that's a risk I accept with the job.
2) no, because as previously mentioned, you don't just randomly search people because they could have a weapon on them. You need grounds that are relevant, necessary, proportionate and lawful. It is unacceptable to infringe someone's human rights on a whim of your own. Seriously, what's so difficult about this to understand?
3) glad you'd find it so amusing. I wouldn't, but then again, neither would I find it terribly funny if you were stabbed. I guess we now know who's the nicer person out of the two of us.
Saying it would be funny was me wording it very badly.. It wouldn't.

I just don't like all this don't stop them because they are young and black.. It's racist. It's not, it's just common sense in most parts. A police officer should be aloud to search anyone, even if they have the tiniest incline that they have a weapon.

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
jimbop1 said:
carpetsoiler said:
1) if I got stabbed whilst on duty, then unfortunately that's a risk I accept with the job.
2) no, because as previously mentioned, you don't just randomly search people because they could have a weapon on them. You need grounds that are relevant, necessary, proportionate and lawful. It is unacceptable to infringe someone's human rights on a whim of your own. Seriously, what's so difficult about this to understand?
3) glad you'd find it so amusing. I wouldn't, but then again, neither would I find it terribly funny if you were stabbed. I guess we now know who's the nicer person out of the two of us.
Saying it would be funny was me wording it very badly.. It wouldn't.

I just don't like all this don't stop them because they are young and black.. It's racist. It's not, it's just common sense in most parts. A police officer should be aloud to search anyone, even if they have the tiniest incline that they have a weapon.
So...its common sense that all black kids carry weapons then! Other than having some good information that someone has a weapon - how would you suspect they had one on them

jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
Bigends said:
jimbop1 said:
carpetsoiler said:
1) if I got stabbed whilst on duty, then unfortunately that's a risk I accept with the job.
2) no, because as previously mentioned, you don't just randomly search people because they could have a weapon on them. You need grounds that are relevant, necessary, proportionate and lawful. It is unacceptable to infringe someone's human rights on a whim of your own. Seriously, what's so difficult about this to understand?
3) glad you'd find it so amusing. I wouldn't, but then again, neither would I find it terribly funny if you were stabbed. I guess we now know who's the nicer person out of the two of us.
Saying it would be funny was me wording it very badly.. It wouldn't.

I just don't like all this don't stop them because they are young and black.. It's racist. It's not, it's just common sense in most parts. A police officer should be aloud to search anyone, even if they have the tiniest incline that they have a weapon.
So...its common sense that all black kids carry weapons then! Other than having some good information that someone has a weapon - how would you suspect they had one on them
I don't remember saying all. I don't think police search them just because of their colour, but because they feel they need searching.

Why do you need just good information? Why can't a police officer go off their instinct? Oh wait.. It's now racist. I said male before.. Does that make me sexist?



Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
jimbop1 said:
Why do you need just good information? Why can't a police officer go off their instinct? Oh wait.. It's now racist. I said male before.. Does that make me sexist?
Reasonable grounds are required for a search.

Searching somebody is quite an invasion of privacy.

I'm quite happy with the way the law stands now.


jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
jimbop1 said:
Why do you need just good information? Why can't a police officer go off their instinct? Oh wait.. It's now racist. I said male before.. Does that make me sexist?
Reasonable grounds are required for a search.

Searching somebody is quite an invasion of privacy.

I'm quite happy with the way the law stands now.
To believe or suspect?

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
jimbop1 said:
To believe or suspect?
The law requires reasonable grounds for suspicion.

jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
jimbop1 said:
To believe or suspect?
The law requires reasonable grounds for suspicion.
In other words abit of common sense. Suspicion is hardly anything.

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
jimbop1 said:
Red 4 said:
jimbop1 said:
To believe or suspect?
The law requires reasonable grounds for suspicion.
In other words abit of common sense. Suspicion is hardly anything.
Unfortunately jim, your understanding of the law is somewhat lacking (no offence).

It's actually quite a high threshold to make a search lawful.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
'Common sense' in his world sounds an awful like heavy-handed stereotyping (being generous). Exactly the sort of approach that has caused serious historical issues.

jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
jimbop1 said:
Red 4 said:
jimbop1 said:
To believe or suspect?
The law requires reasonable grounds for suspicion.
In other words abit of common sense. Suspicion is hardly anything.
Unfortunately jim, your understanding of the law is somewhat lacking (no offence).

It's actually quite a high threshold to make a search lawful.
Ok. Sad times for police and my country in general.

No offence taken.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
Much better times when the police need to use objective facts in order to justify an intrusive power.

jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Saturday 9th August 2014
quotequote all
Intrusive or protective?

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 11th August 2014
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Both, but misuse has lead to riots and serious mistrust of the police. They must be getting a reasonable balance since the last CSEW showed knife-crime and gun crime to be again reduced: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/cri...

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Monday 11th August 2014
quotequote all
From recent HMIC data integrity inspections in relation to crime recording. Its clear most forces have been under-recording for years - previous figures can be taken with a pinch of salt or certainly shouldnt be relied on
http://www.hmic.gov.uk/news/news-feed/crime-record...

Edited by Bigends on Monday 11th August 17:12

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 11th August 2014
quotequote all
The CSEW isn't police data.

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Monday 11th August 2014
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La Liga said:
The CSEW isn't police data.
I know, but it'll be interesting to see if figures tally a bit closer now that Police recording is more accurate. Many simple knife and other weapon possession offences wont show up in CSEW data if nobody was on the other end of a knife being used in crime

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 11th August 2014
quotequote all
I'd say any recent reductions are fighting against greater overall recording which makes the more impressive. They shouldn't have done it, but I think it's great the under-reporting was sticking two fingers up at the Government's / HMIC simpleton performance structure.




Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Monday 11th August 2014
quotequote all
La Liga said:
I'd say any recent reductions are fighting against greater overall recording which makes the more impressive. They shouldn't have done it, but I think it's great the under-reporting was sticking two fingers up at the Government's / HMIC simpleton performance structure.

Yep, though we wont really know until next year when when we should have had a complete year of correct recording to look at.

carinaman

21,206 posts

171 months