Police Scotland - Officers routinely carrying guns.
Discussion
I live in Inverness and this is the hot topic for all and sundry. I personally see no problem with armed police pounding the beat. They all think if the cops are armed then the lowlife will be arming themselves as well. I am afraid this is modern times and the population will have to accept it.
Mk3Spitfire said:
I thought the "routinely armed" aspect referred to the fact that they carry sidearms as standard, not the routine calls they attend. Until recently, my force ARV's would only arm when attending a firearms job, and afterwards, weapons would be stowed. They are now "routinely armed" as in, at the beginning of the tour of duty they will strap the Glock to their thigh.
This is the bit i'm not so sure about. We managed for decades with the guns staying out of sight and in the cars. I am not sure I like the idea of ARV's strolling round at RTC's or breaking up pub fights with a deadly weapon strapped to their leg. I don't know...maybe it is needed. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
In the 10 years and two different forces I've worked I've never seen AFOs without their sidearms when getting food / dealing with non-firearms incidents / traffic matters / on patrol. It's never lead to the whatever unspecified consequences the people causing this media attention are worried about. No 'arms race', no weapon retention issues, no increase in armed officers, no other 'thin-end of the wedge fallacy' type-stuff, either. This is the bit i'm not so sure about. We managed for decades with the guns staying out of sight and in the cars. I am not sure I like the idea of ARV's strolling round at RTC's or breaking up pub fights with a deadly weapon strapped to their leg. I don't know...maybe it is needed. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
If a CC observes the vast data of and history forces South of the border who do it this way without any negative consequences, then how can a rational and intelligent thinker not conclude it'll be a suitable policy there, too? Or do we throw that out of the window because a few (if I were being uncharitable, thick people), get all emotional and make some instinctive and incorrect conclusions?
I want intelligent thinking at the top of the chain. Not knee-jerk idiocy.
It actually sounds unlikely they have been historically any different since AFO deployment / relative minimum numbers / tactics and the rest is the same across each force (save the Met). ACPO bring uniformity to these things to ensure "best practice".
BBC article said:
Police Scotland, the single Scotland-wide force, say when specialist officers are not deployed on active firearms duty, it is expected that they carry out normal policing duties while carrying their sidearms.
This policy was introduced by the former Strathclyde force in 2008, and followed by Tayside in 2009 and Northern Constabulary just before the single force was created in 2013. Hitherto, firearms officers had to retrieve their weapons under a senior officer's authorisation from a locked safe in an armed response vehicle.
The BBC mention this but I'm not convinced it's accurate. I have never known an authority needed to carry a sidearm. The carbines don't need an authority in all circumstances, either. This policy was introduced by the former Strathclyde force in 2008, and followed by Tayside in 2009 and Northern Constabulary just before the single force was created in 2013. Hitherto, firearms officers had to retrieve their weapons under a senior officer's authorisation from a locked safe in an armed response vehicle.
Mk3Spitfire said:
It's the image. It makes people feel unsafe, and gives the impression that we are turning into an American-esque country.
This. If they absolutely have to carry them at all times, maybe they can do so a little more discreetly.I have memories of an army Warrior sitting outside Heathrow- the squaddie being interviewed about it gave the official line that it will reassure the public. My impression was that it would do the exact opposite.
grumpy52 said:
All these whinging about armed police on our streets don't bat an eyelid when abroad on holiday in countries that have all armed police, many not trained to anything like the standard of our own police forces.
Get over it .
Err, no. I very much did bat an eyelid when the Mutawa were around in Saudi Arabia.Get over it .
0000 said:
grumpy52 said:
All these whinging about armed police on our streets don't bat an eyelid when abroad on holiday in countries that have all armed police, many not trained to anything like the standard of our own police forces.
Get over it .
Err, no. I very much did bat an eyelid when the Mutawa were around in Saudi Arabia.Get over it .
And me - being interviewed by two armed Cops at Boston Airport in 1986 certainly made me bat an eyelid at their heavy duty automatic weaponry and vast amount of ammo. I am not wimpy about guns - have been around guns and fired shotguns and rifles for leisure, but being up close to those things is another matter.
grumpy52 said:
All these whinging about armed police on our streets don't bat an eyelid when abroad on holiday in countries that have all armed police, many not trained to anything like the standard of our own police forces.
In Egypt I had the interesting experience of staring at half a dozen AK74s pointed at me by the police there. It's not pleasant. OTOH, the lieutenant in charge was incredibly polite when he realised I wasn't the chap he was looking for.I had a remarkably similar event in Latvia, courtesy of the local militia. They were a great deal less polite.
I don't particularly want such experiences here.
I haven't been to Holland since I was too young to remember. The balance is a little different in France and Germany in that there's a civilian gun to about one in three people there, five times what it is in the UK. And given the French propensity to riot and still recent history in Germany - I was born in W. Germany - I'm not sure they're comparable.
I struggle to have an opinion on the way another country conducts itself internally. I either choose to visit or i don't and this isn't a deciding factor for me. I still think it's to be avoided here though.
I struggle to have an opinion on the way another country conducts itself internally. I either choose to visit or i don't and this isn't a deciding factor for me. I still think it's to be avoided here though.
Rovinghawk said:
In Egypt I had the interesting experience of staring at half a dozen AK74s pointed at me by the police there. It's not pleasant. OTOH, the lieutenant in charge was incredibly polite when he realised I wasn't the chap he was looking for.
I took this photo in Egypt. I grew up on military bases around the world so guns for the guys on guard duty weren't an unusual sight, but I was uncomfortable enough seeing this lot hanging around on nearly every block to not just bat an eyelid but take a photo. This was before the current unrest.
0000 said:
I'm not sure they're comparable.
They're comparable in socioeconomics ways, whereas Egypt and other places are less so. It's not perfect, but the point is all the police carry sidearms and there don't appear to be any obvious issues. Having fewer than 2% carry here at all time doesn't present any issues. Parts of Scotland have had this "policy" since 2008 according to the BBC. I'd imagine those objecting to the uniformity across Scotland would be happy to point out any negative incidents / consequences if there were any over the last 6 years. That's even if the AFOs actually didn't carry their sidearms as a matter of course before, which I find unlikely. Even if they didn't, it's nothing new to most of the population since every force I am aware of in England / Wales already does this and has for sometime.
I live in Inverness.
Don't see the problem with it personally. Nearly every office I see out and about isn't armed.
I've noticed the armed lot in Tesco's cafe a few times (the VW Touraeg's are always parked in the pick up point!) but apart from that hardly ever see them.
Would rather they were out and about in the community should the need arise to respond to an armed incident, rather than holed up in some office miles away.
Don't see the problem with it personally. Nearly every office I see out and about isn't armed.
I've noticed the armed lot in Tesco's cafe a few times (the VW Touraeg's are always parked in the pick up point!) but apart from that hardly ever see them.
Would rather they were out and about in the community should the need arise to respond to an armed incident, rather than holed up in some office miles away.
La Liga said:
hey're comparable in socioeconomics ways, whereas Egypt and other places are less so. It's not perfect, but the point is all the police carry sidearms and there don't appear to be any obvious issues.
I'd say five times as many firearms, six times times as many people per head of population being killed by firearms in France isn't without obvious issue. I'm not suggesting for a minute it's all down to armed police, but I don't think you can have it both ways; no issues and comparable.Greendubber said:
I can't understand how it's news when it's been happening for years!
It's propaganda NOT "news"
- and it's hit the mark! 
Hook line and sinker, some posts on this thread 
.At least one other poster (upthread, also one or two on the similar thread in NP&E) have pointed out the facts (which do get in the way of this "news" item
)... Way to go, BBC "news"
!0000 said:
La Liga said:
hey're comparable in socioeconomics ways, whereas Egypt and other places are less so. It's not perfect, but the point is all the police carry sidearms and there don't appear to be any obvious issues.
I'd say five times as many firearms, six times times as many people per head of population being killed by firearms in France isn't without obvious issue. I'm not suggesting for a minute it's all down to armed police, but I don't think you can have it both ways; no issues and comparable.We're pretty much the only country not to have police who carry sidearms all the time, yet whenever there's something like this people go into panic stations as if people can't be trained to carry a gun like they are in nearly every other country across the globe.
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