relationship breakup and house

[dancole90]

Me and my ex girlfriend bought our first house last July and moved in in August. Because she had not long ago left uni, and was still classed as a student with no job yet, the mortgage and all bills were in my name. She sent me around £200 a month from savings and then bought the odd food shop as and when she could afford it while she waited for her job to start which was a guaranteed position to begin in the December when the previous person left. Once she started work I agreed she could use her wage to clear her own finances for the first few months as I was managing by myself. Anyway, we broke up in march/april this year and she willingly moved back to her parents and took her own stuff with her.

A few more details:
The mortgage and land registry is solely in my name.
All bills were taken from my account and in my name.
The initial deposit was £8k from my own savings plus a £4k gift from her grand parents. During the application we needed a letter from them to say the money was a gift with no requirement to repay and no interest in the house.
I paid her grandparents £3000 back, the last of my savings as they were very helpful and it seemed only right IMO , this was all I could afford. For my own peace of mind they signed a receipt letter saying they accepted my offer of £3k and had received payment and had no further involvement in the house.
We weren't married and have no children together.

Today I got a call from her saying she is going to pursue for half of the house as she contributed towards it.

I'll no doubt have to lawyer up in the coming months but can anyone give me any advice?

[BluePurpleRed]

shes deluded. Tell her to jog on. At best she was paying a little rent.

[dancole90]

BluePurpleRed said:

shes deluded. Tell her to jog on. At best she was paying a little rent.

Exactly what I told her. All in all, her family was left only losing £1000 which was agreed. I guess now they've all changed their mind as the house next door is up for sale, identical to mine and is considerably more than i paid last year.

[Rude-boy]

Honest answer?

She'll most likely lose, or get £3.50 and a price of a pint, yet you will both spend much more than you repaid to the grand parents in legal fees.

Lots more details needed to give legal advice, which I will not do here anyway as it is a contentious matter and I avoid that like Ebola.

If it were me I would arrange a meeting with her and explain why she is entitled to 3/4 of fk all, much less your original deposit. Explain how much it is likely to cost her (even the No Win No Fee mob would be highly unlikely to touch this with yours, let alone theirs) and then agree on a "fk off out my life and die" figure she will accept and payment schedule. If this is less than the cost of fighting the case then agree on this and next time you buy a house with a woman you haven't got pregnant or married to get a bloody Declaration of Trust set up first. It will cost you a shed load less. (For those that know She does not have to be on the deeds as it deals only with the equitable title and not the legal one. There are potential conflict issues with an institutional lender to consider however, not to mention between unequal clients.

EDIT

Looking at you next post about the increase in the next door property it appears you might have a costly issue on your hands. As said it looks to me on the scant information that you are not a sitting duck as she thinks that you are. She has a lot to prove to the court to get them to rule in her favour, but until she goes to a proper solicitor who outlines her case she will be going on what her mates tell her.

Step one. If offer to come to an agreement as above fails then tell her that you do not feel that it is appropriate to discuss the matter further with her directly and therefore she should get her solicitors to write to you and you will take advice. Then do it, knowing what she is claiming and what her grounds for thinking that she has any entitlement are.

Edited by Rude-boy on Monday 11th August 12:33

[barker22]

I think worst case scenario is you are made to pay her back the amount she can prove she has paid in, which your post suggests is not very much. But unlikely.

[Rude-boy]

barker22 said:

I think worst case scenario is you are made to pay her back the amount she can prove she has paid in, which your post suggests is not very much. But unlikely.

Fairly much. The biggest issue here though is just how mental and avaricious she is and how much she and her family are willing to pony up to 'fight the nasty horrible man who has all her money'.

As you will see in the Business threads and many others, sometimes being in the right matters little when you put the economics into things.

I would be surprised if the OP had to pay a penny out in any case, but the costs of getting to that point, monetary and otherwise, might mean that a negotiated settlement reinforced by a legally binding agreement is the most sensible way ahead.

[anonymous-user]

I would not be quite so fast to dismiss any possibility of a valid claim by the ex girlfriend, albeit that such a claim would probably have a low value. The OP refers, even now, to he and the ex buying "our first house", and it appears from his narrative that he and his ex were agreed at that time that the house would be jointly owned. She could argue that she has a beneficial share in the property, with the OP holding the legal title on trust for the pair of them.

Calling the payments that the ex made "rent" distorts reality. Would the OP and the ex have classed those payments as rent at the time? No they would not. She was making small payments towards a joint property. Having said that, the actual contributions made by the ex were small, and so if she has a beneficial interest in the house it is an interest in a very small percentage of its value.

A sensible solution if the claim is pressed would be to offer (without prejudice) to buy out any interest for a fixed sum. You might calculate the proportions paid in by each party up to the split, and offer a percentage of value based on that proportion. It will probably be a modest number.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 11th August 14:14

[PurpleMoonlight]

Rude-boy said:

I would be surprised if the OP had to pay a penny out in any case, but the costs of getting to that point, monetary and otherwise, might mean that a negotiated settlement reinforced by a legally binding agreement is the most sensible way ahead.

Got that t-shirt.

I was advised it would cost me £10,000 to fight the greedy bhes claim and she was receiving bloody legal aid for it, so even if I won I lost. This was 10 years ago so cost probably a lot more now.

Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Monday 11th August 14:17

[CaptainSlow]

Breadvan72 said:

A sensible solution if the claim is pressed would be to offer (without prejudice) to buy out any interest for a fixed sum. You might calculate the proportions paid in by each party up to the split, and offer a percentage of value based on that proportion. It will probably be a modest number.

+1

Make her an offer and make sure you use the words without prejudice in the letter. I would suggest it is based on something like:

(£1,0000 + 7*£200) * (1 + % value uplift in the house). I think this is pretty fair.

[Rude-boy]

Breadvan72 said:

I would not be quite so fast to dismiss any possibility of a valid claim by the ex girlfriend, albeit that such a claim would probably have a low value.

I fully agree that there is a potential claim there, although IMO she will have a job proving it, even if I'm undecided if the grandparents getting £3k back is a good or bad thing for the OP's case.

As you have said the intention of the parties will be key to this. It must also be considered that there is an element of occupational rent that should be factored in to the calculations...

Above and over all though it is my opinion that the OP needs this clipped now and not to let it fester and drag on for years and at a high cost. Accurate and proper advice is impossible on the information in hand and therefore all eventualities have to be considered. The very best thing I can say to the OP is to get her to put her claim in writing (preferably via a solicitor) and go from there.

[RYH64E]

What would be the situation regarding the grandparents gift? The ex will probably argue that the op wasn't involved in the transaction, that it was a gift from her grandparents to her not the op, he had no business repaying it without her consent and that she retains her percentage ownership of the house. The grandparents never had any equity in the house so any letter from them renouncing their interest would be meaningless surely?

Edited by RYH64E on Monday 11th August 19:40

[Xerstead]

CaptainSlow said:

+1

Make her an offer and make sure you use the words without prejudice in the letter. I would suggest it is based on something like:

(£1,0000 + 7*£200) * (1 + % value uplift in the house). I think this is pretty fair.

I would think it fair to also deduct 50% of council tax and bills for the period which wouldn't leave much, if any, contribution to the mortgage.
I think your calculation is about right, although I would include the full £4000 for the calculations, as it was put in at the start, and deduct her share of the bills from her contributions.

OP, you can speak to a couple of estate agents to get a fresh valuation, with or without her knowledge, giving you a batter idea of values.

Just had a thought as I was about to post. The above assumes her contributions (not the deposit) are being counted, solely, towards capital repayment. This gives her a much better deal than the OP for their time together.
In reality the majority of mortgage repayments in the early stages are just servicing the interest leaving a small amount to pay down the capital. As time goes on the outstanding balance is reduced so less interest is charged resulting in more capital being paid off each month.
I've no idea about your mortgage, but a quick search suggests 80% of the first year repayments could be covering the interest charges. Call your bank/check statements to work out what it is for you. With this in mind I'd review the calculations.

(£4,000 + percentage of repayments covering capital * (7 months * £200 - half of all bills )) * (1 + % value change in the house) = Offer, less the £3000 already returned.

Looks a bit complicated but assuming 20% of repayments covered capital, 5% increase in value and her share of bills £660:
£4k + 0.2 * (£1400-£660)* 1.05 = £4355 - £3000 = Offer £1355. More than fair imo.

Edit:
It wouldn't surprise me if her friends have suggested she should get half the full value of the house Nothing to stop you asking her for the same if she does
If she does, unreasonably, stake her claim for more, point out that if you sold the house now she would likely owe you more money once associated costs had been paid.
So far she's gained for no risk, the debt is all yours and the mortgage company don't have any claim over her should you not pay for any reason.

Edited by Xerstead on Monday 11th August 21:47

[defblade]

dancole90 said:

the house next door is up for sale, identical to mine and is considerably more than i paid last year.

What they're asking for it is not necessarily the same as the eventual selling price....

[Wacky Racer]

defblade said:

dancole90 said:

the house next door is up for sale, identical to mine and is considerably more than i paid last year.

What they're asking for it is not necessarily the same as the eventual selling price....

This. Good point.

[dave123456]

dancole90 said:

Me and my ex girlfriend bought our first house last July and moved in in August. Because she had not long ago left uni, and was still classed as a student with no job yet, the mortgage and all bills were in my name. She sent me around £200 a month from savings and then bought the odd food shop as and when she could afford it while she waited for her job to start which was a guaranteed position to begin in the December when the previous person left. Once she started work I agreed she could use her wage to clear her own finances for the first few months as I was managing by myself. Anyway, we broke up in march/april this year and she willingly moved back to her parents and took her own stuff with her.

A few more details:
The mortgage and land registry is solely in my name.
All bills were taken from my account and in my name.
The initial deposit was £8k from my own savings plus a £4k gift from her grand parents. During the application we needed a letter from them to say the money was a gift with no requirement to repay and no interest in the house.
I paid her grandparents £3000 back, the last of my savings as they were very helpful and it seemed only right IMO , this was all I could afford. For my own peace of mind they signed a receipt letter saying they accepted my offer of £3k and had received payment and had no further involvement in the house.
We weren't married and have no children together.

Today I got a call from her saying she is going to pursue for half of the house as she contributed towards it.

I'll no doubt have to lawyer up in the coming months but can anyone give me any advice?

i'd knock together a simple schedule that starts with you contributing 11/12ths of the deposit (so it sounds) the £200 per month and the odd food shop from her, the costs of running the house (include mortgage interest) and you will probably find out you have a decent case to support paying her 1/12th of the equity, this won't stand up in a court but may actually provide some clout if she can see sense. she won't....

in the same scenario I had 3 valuations for a quick sale, removed the selling fees, took off the mortgage and she was waving the one 'valuation' she had and tried to ignore the costs to liquidate, as well as the fact her vastly inflated selling price would take months to shift.

it's bl00dy irritating as, quite frankly, you're giving someone a return on an investment they could never have afforded solo...fully understand re-imbursing or compensating where loss or sacrifice has been made but common sense should prevail in these scenarios, not lawyers racking up needless costs.

[sm1tty]

Some very sensible advice here to my eyes about the (small) claim she may have.

Approaching it from a different perspective though, is it not usual for mortgage companies to (at the time of purchase) ask any adult due to be living at the property to sign a waiver to any claim in the property. This is something I've had to get a couple of times from friends I had living with me and paying rent to me.

Assuming you told the mortgage company you were going to be living together you may have a witnessed document available in which she waives all her claim. Do with that what you will (and I personally wouldn't forget about the moral obligation on the £1,000).

[gaz1234]

Mortgage and bills in your name. She fked

[GuitarPlayer63]

Make a really detailed record of everything you have spent on the house, either on Mortgage, bills or Improvements, against that, document everything she ever contributed to the property and then go and get legal advice - the first consultation is generally not too expensive to understand what you should or need to do.

[anonymous-user]

gaz1234 said:

Mortgage and bills in your name. She fked

You seem very sure of that view, even though it's wrong. Could you let us have some reasons to support your learned opinion, and perhaps give us an insight into your legal qualifications and experience? If you are just spouting off pub wisdom without any knowledge of the law, why bother?

As for the point above about disclaiming against the mortgage lender, that would not bind the ex as against the OP. In some cases such a disclaimer might provide supporting evidence if the legal owner's case was that there was no agreement as to co-ownership, but in the present case it appears from the opening post that the OP and his ex had an agreement to be be co-owners of the house.

[xstian]

You said it yourself, we bought our first house together. Your ex funded a third of the deposit, via her grandparents. She paid money each month towards the mortgage.

You must of had an agreement, even verbal, when you bought the house together. Break ups can be very hard and bitter, don't let that cloud your judgement.