Protecting inheritance
Discussion
Brief scenario
Widow living in her own mortgage free house.
Plenty of savings and growing as her pension is far greater than her outgoings
Her will states her estate to be split equally to her 4 grandchildren and she wants this to always be the case.
All good so far........
She has now met a widower and is talking about him selling his house and moving in with her.
He has family including 10 grandchildren who are all in his will.
Some concerns
Would he have any claim on the house or her savings?
Would his family have any claim on the house in the event of his death?
If he out lives her what happens to the house?
Do things change dramatically if they were to marry?
What other concerns would you have?
Thanks
Widow living in her own mortgage free house.
Plenty of savings and growing as her pension is far greater than her outgoings
Her will states her estate to be split equally to her 4 grandchildren and she wants this to always be the case.
All good so far........
She has now met a widower and is talking about him selling his house and moving in with her.
He has family including 10 grandchildren who are all in his will.
Some concerns
Would he have any claim on the house or her savings?
Would his family have any claim on the house in the event of his death?
If he out lives her what happens to the house?
Do things change dramatically if they were to marry?
What other concerns would you have?
Thanks
If they get married and he out lives her... he is the one that will inherit it all.
Im not totally sure, but someone will come along and verify, but if she puts her part of the estate in trust for her family, then when he goes (assuming its not all spent) the grand kids on her side would still have something.
Although I have seen it happen when someone like him cuts out her kids as he's the sole beneficiary now and just passes it lock stock to his family and cuts her side out completely.
Friend had that happen on quite a sizeable inheritance.
Im not totally sure, but someone will come along and verify, but if she puts her part of the estate in trust for her family, then when he goes (assuming its not all spent) the grand kids on her side would still have something.
Although I have seen it happen when someone like him cuts out her kids as he's the sole beneficiary now and just passes it lock stock to his family and cuts her side out completely.
Friend had that happen on quite a sizeable inheritance.
In some circumstances, a limited class of relatives not reasonably provided for by a will can have a claim on an estate, but in general the will determines inheritance. See the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975.
I would have no concerns, and would wish the widow happiness in her new relationship, but I don't go in for this habit of waiting ghoulishly for old rellies to die so I can scoop up unearned bonuses. That's just me, however, as I gather that most people consider that they have some sort of moral right to be enriched by death.
I would have no concerns, and would wish the widow happiness in her new relationship, but I don't go in for this habit of waiting ghoulishly for old rellies to die so I can scoop up unearned bonuses. That's just me, however, as I gather that most people consider that they have some sort of moral right to be enriched by death.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 19th August 12:37
Widow living in her own mortgage free house.
Plenty of savings and growing as her pension is far greater than her outgoings
Her will states her estate to be split equally to her 4 grandchildren and she wants this to always be the case.
- If she knows she has excess income, Has she not thought about giving up to 3k/year to say, grandchildren. Wedding gifts, xmas, birthdays i.e. use up ALL her allowance per year?
- The she could do a PET (Potentially Exempt Transfer)... some IHT might be payable on her death, but depends on how long between gift(s) and death.
She has now met a widower and is talking about him selling his house and moving in with her.
He has family including 10 grandchildren who are all in his will.
- Depending on how she feels about it...she is entitled to do what she likes... or she can take advice from a specialist or solicitor before going ahead...
Some concerns
Would he have any claim on the house or her savings?
- If he lived in her house for a period of time - claim on house, NO, but rights to live in house possibly, and then it depends on the arrangements between them and circumstances.
Would his family have any claim on the house in the event of his death?
- Normally no, if the house title is in her sole name....After her death, it REALLY depends on what arrangements were made in her Will
If he out lives her what happens to the house?
- House and other assets normally forms part of her estate if she has full title - he might have to move out (as in a recent case of mine - very similar)...All depends...She needs to seek advice on all scenarios.
Do things change dramatically if they were to marry?
YES!, BUT if she is canny, she would make sure that she keeps the title in her name only, and would have talked openly with hubby (and family possibly to put their minds at rest) prior to marriage about subsequent arrangements on death
What other concerns would you have?
- Not much, provided the circumstances and potential outcome have been calmly and openly discussed (I would encourage that)to prevent family relationship souring, preconceptions, and subsequent disputes after death.
ABOVE ALL - BE SENSIBLE... and in the end, it is HER money and assets, and (within boundaries) she can do what she likes with it!
Plenty of savings and growing as her pension is far greater than her outgoings
Her will states her estate to be split equally to her 4 grandchildren and she wants this to always be the case.
- If she knows she has excess income, Has she not thought about giving up to 3k/year to say, grandchildren. Wedding gifts, xmas, birthdays i.e. use up ALL her allowance per year?
- The she could do a PET (Potentially Exempt Transfer)... some IHT might be payable on her death, but depends on how long between gift(s) and death.
She has now met a widower and is talking about him selling his house and moving in with her.
He has family including 10 grandchildren who are all in his will.
- Depending on how she feels about it...she is entitled to do what she likes... or she can take advice from a specialist or solicitor before going ahead...
Some concerns
Would he have any claim on the house or her savings?
- If he lived in her house for a period of time - claim on house, NO, but rights to live in house possibly, and then it depends on the arrangements between them and circumstances.
Would his family have any claim on the house in the event of his death?
- Normally no, if the house title is in her sole name....After her death, it REALLY depends on what arrangements were made in her Will
If he out lives her what happens to the house?
- House and other assets normally forms part of her estate if she has full title - he might have to move out (as in a recent case of mine - very similar)...All depends...She needs to seek advice on all scenarios.
Do things change dramatically if they were to marry?
YES!, BUT if she is canny, she would make sure that she keeps the title in her name only, and would have talked openly with hubby (and family possibly to put their minds at rest) prior to marriage about subsequent arrangements on death
What other concerns would you have?
- Not much, provided the circumstances and potential outcome have been calmly and openly discussed (I would encourage that)to prevent family relationship souring, preconceptions, and subsequent disputes after death.
ABOVE ALL - BE SENSIBLE... and in the end, it is HER money and assets, and (within boundaries) she can do what she likes with it!
The list of concerns for one of the 4 grandchildren is long and impossible to deal with out a proper meeting.
The important thing though is to ask Grandma what her feelings on the subject are and take it from there. If it were my nan I would be wanting to make sure that she saw a solicitor on her own to discuss the potential implications and what, if any, safe guards she would like to put in place.
Above all else though it should be remembered that it her money, her life and, once she has passed on, any money or other assets anyone gets from her estate they should be grateful for.
Abuse of the elderly is always a concern and she might not be as clued up as a 25 year old as to the pitfalls cohabiting can bring into the equation. For these reasons she should be encouraged to take independent legal advice, before anyone moves anywhere and take it from there.
The important thing though is to ask Grandma what her feelings on the subject are and take it from there. If it were my nan I would be wanting to make sure that she saw a solicitor on her own to discuss the potential implications and what, if any, safe guards she would like to put in place.
Above all else though it should be remembered that it her money, her life and, once she has passed on, any money or other assets anyone gets from her estate they should be grateful for.
Abuse of the elderly is always a concern and she might not be as clued up as a 25 year old as to the pitfalls cohabiting can bring into the equation. For these reasons she should be encouraged to take independent legal advice, before anyone moves anywhere and take it from there.
My father in law has been living with a woman for 18 years now as man and wife but have not married due to inheritance and pension issues.
Its her house but he does all the work regarding upkeep and improvements as he sold his.
They have wills in place and agreements that we know about regarding him living in the house until his death if she goes first. This was all done by lawers and has been agreed by everyone involved.
This separation of assets is fine by us and my wife has no plans to inherit anything thats not in her dads name but given the money grabbing nature of the other family we have no doubt he will have an uphill battle keeping the house.
This arrangement has not been a good one for my wife esp when her dad talks about his other family that we never see.
Its her house but he does all the work regarding upkeep and improvements as he sold his.
They have wills in place and agreements that we know about regarding him living in the house until his death if she goes first. This was all done by lawers and has been agreed by everyone involved.
This separation of assets is fine by us and my wife has no plans to inherit anything thats not in her dads name but given the money grabbing nature of the other family we have no doubt he will have an uphill battle keeping the house.
This arrangement has not been a good one for my wife esp when her dad talks about his other family that we never see.
Breadvan72 said:
In some circumstances, a limited class of relatives not reasonably provided for by a will can have a claim on an estate, but in general the will determines inheritance. See the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975.
I would have no concerns, and would wish the widow happiness in her new relationship, but I don't go in for this habit of waiting ghoulishly for old replies to die so I can scoop up unearned bonuses. That's just me, however, as I gather that most people consider that they have some sort of moral right to be enriched by death.
This is totally correct. I would however advise the OP to bring the subject up now though and discuss it with Grandma. I have seen surviving second spouses do the strangest of things when not fettered by trusts or other constraints. More so when they have an avaricious family behind them.I would have no concerns, and would wish the widow happiness in her new relationship, but I don't go in for this habit of waiting ghoulishly for old replies to die so I can scoop up unearned bonuses. That's just me, however, as I gather that most people consider that they have some sort of moral right to be enriched by death.
It should also be remembered at whist all litigation is costly you aint seen nothing until you have seen the bills a case in the Chancery Division can rack up.
I echo what other say... If Mum has concern over children or grandchildren's inheritance, she should seek independent advice
If she is one of those that doesn't have a Will, or even refuses to have one (Yes, it still happens) then if she dies intestate (no Will) then there are fixed rules:
If married (or in a civil partnership), and your estate is worth more than £250,000 and Mum has had children (I presume this is the scenario, under the current Intestacy Rules, the first £250,000 worth of assets (which can include the value of the house) and personal possessions will go to the spouse/civil partner but they will only get a life interest in half of whatever is left over.
The other half will go to children immediately with the rest following when the life interest ends on the death of the spouse/civil partner.
If any child had died before her, then their own children (hyer grandchildren), would get their parent’s share and so on if a grandchild has predeceased etc
If she is one of those that doesn't have a Will, or even refuses to have one (Yes, it still happens) then if she dies intestate (no Will) then there are fixed rules:
If married (or in a civil partnership), and your estate is worth more than £250,000 and Mum has had children (I presume this is the scenario, under the current Intestacy Rules, the first £250,000 worth of assets (which can include the value of the house) and personal possessions will go to the spouse/civil partner but they will only get a life interest in half of whatever is left over.
The other half will go to children immediately with the rest following when the life interest ends on the death of the spouse/civil partner.
If any child had died before her, then their own children (hyer grandchildren), would get their parent’s share and so on if a grandchild has predeceased etc
Edited by 3Dee on Tuesday 19th August 12:41
Breadvan72 said:
Seriously, why not chill out and, if you get something in the will, cool, but if you don't, then don't miss what you never had.
I am 100% in agreement with this in that I have always said to my folks that so long as they leave enough for the bonfire and BBQ that's all I care about. It is a topic though that should, I believe, be discussed within the family. I have seen this situation many times and often older people are not as clued up as they should be on what could happen. As such it is my opinion that whilst no one should ever count on any inheritance, they should be aware of their nearest relatives basic intentions and that they have had the proper advice on ensuring that these are reflected and protected in a legal framework. Anyone who has worked in the law for more than a few weeks can tell you tales of nefarious deeds committed by grasping would be beneficiaries and the lengths that some will go to. It tends to get even worse when there are later life marriages and co habitations where one 'family' has their eyes firmly on securing the entire inheritance for 'their' bloodline' at the expense of the other.
Op here. I should add that I am not one of the beneficiaries before I get flamed as a scrounger. I am very pleased that she has met someone who makes her happy. Her 1st husband died 6 years ago after being married for 52 years. My concern is that the 4 grandchildren aren't disadvantaged in anyway and indeed she has asked me to make sure that this doesn't happen.
Thanks for the advice so far.
Thanks for the advice so far.
DaveOrange said:
she has asked me to make sure that this doesn't happen.
Get someone instructed to do this then, properly. Ensure that the requirements are set out properly from the outset with the people you're instructing, and ensure that this is written down so that this can be referred to when people start trying to pull on little loose threads in the will trying to unravel it on the basis of 'what she was trying to do', as demonstrated in the other thread running.What can happen/will happen etc are irrelevant once you get a bit of paper confirming exactly what you want to happen, absent any issues like the one BV posted up. Everything you're likely to see on here from anyone other than a select few (and I'm not one of those) is likely to be well meaning but inaccurate. Get the will done properly - it's the only way you can be reasonably comfortable with it!
DaveOrange said:
..... indeed she has asked me to make sure that this doesn't happen.
Thanks for the advice so far.
In which case I would advise her to seek independent professional guidance (should not cost very much), and for the sake of a hundred or so, you can all relax.Thanks for the advice so far.
I would also recommend finding a professional who has TEP (full member of STEP) after his name, or have equivalent specialist qualifications, cos not all solicitors or others who practise in this area do.
Remember, it may well be that proposed hubby is also very concerned about his end too, so it makes sense for them to get that advice, and act on it!
DaveOrange said:
Op here. I should add that I am not one of the beneficiaries before I get flamed as a scrounger. I am very pleased that she has met someone who makes her happy. Her 1st husband died 6 years ago after being married for 52 years. My concern is that the 4 grandchildren aren't disadvantaged in anyway and indeed she has asked me to make sure that this doesn't happen.
Thanks for the advice so far.
I don't think that anyone thinks you are a scrounger, more that the default position when answering a question like yours is always "What does the DONOR think!" Families can be very complex and there are usually many sub plots and issues that the outside world has little knowledge of. As such any legal advisor will always chime in first and foremost with words to the effect of "It's their money, what do they want?"Thanks for the advice so far.
The very best advice I can give you is to, with her agreement, set up a meeting for her to go and see a solicitor with the letters TEP ( http://www.step.org/ ) and if possible SFE ( http://www.solicitorsfortheelderly.com/ )after their name. Feel free to take her to and from the appointment but take a book as you'll be sitting in the waiting room whilst she is discussing things, although you might be brought in at some stage if it is thought necessary to help clarify any bits and bobs.
Breadvan72 said:
Rude Boy, was it you I was recommending The Eustace Diamonds to last week? Fun and high jinks involving mid Victorian adventuress widow and the family jewels.
It was indeed. Pleasantly surprised to find it was one of Amazon's free books so is sitting on the Kindle waiting for me to finish "The 15 decisive battles of the world from Marathon to Waterloo" which I discovered half read when looking for the former!Breadvan72 said:
Seriously, why not chill out and, if you get something in the will, cool, but if you don't, then don't miss what you never had.
I agree with the general sentiment but for a lot of people it's as much about wanting to try to avoid the "new" family getting a windfall at the expense of the old family as it is about actually wanting the money for themselves. Or perhaps I'm just a bit naïve....
Lurking Lawyer said:
I agree with the general sentiment but for a lot of people it's as much about wanting to try to avoid the "new" family getting a windfall at the expense of the old family as it is about actually wanting the money for themselves.
Or perhaps I'm just a bit naïve....
From my desk, as I am pushing them toward the wills and probate department, it is almost always about that. Not a malice or greed thing, just wanting to make sure that 'the right thing' is done and that they aren't sitting at Grandma Jean's funeral before they realise that Gramdma Jean's fella, Brian, has been left the lot and he never really got on with them anyway and happens to have 6 grandchildren of his own.Or perhaps I'm just a bit naïve....
Contrary to popular belief most people are actually fairly straight and honest and don't feel the need to scheme their way through life. The nice guys though, as opposed to the patsies, realise that not everyone is the same as them and so ensure that what Auntie Jean intends to happen does, rather than leave it to chance and assumption.
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