Dispute with builder - what do I do?
Discussion
Hi all, I'm having a problem with my builder. He's done about £125k worth of work, and I've always paid invoices immediately upon receipt. He now feels the job is complete and has invoiced the last small (£1800-ish) invoice. I dispute this as the work has not, in my opinion, been completed to a good standard - roof tiles have slipped, the window frames are scuffed and marked from where his labourers attempted to fit finishing strips to the un-welded mitred bay corners, vertical tiling is untidy, lots of small 'snagging' issues to complete.
He has advised he will not be returning to the site and has asked that I save my time listing all the details of the 'deficient work' as he will turn it over to a debt collection agency today.
I had previously sought the assistance of a family member (lawyer) who suggested that rather than suing him (expense, time, stress) I compromise on all the outstanding issues, which I did. In my opinion he has not done all the things he subsequently agreed to do.
So, what happens now? I am happy I am not demanding too much, happy that my concerns are real and relevant, and will be writing to him this weekend to formally identify the areas requiring attention. I always thought an agency would only work if the courts judged I owed the money - true? There has been no arbitration, no hearing etc. Should I be taking any pre-emptive action / making any plans?
He's also warned my credit rating will be affected, but apart from my 'paid-off-monthly' credit card, I never borrow money (no mortgage, hp, loans etc.). Any reason to be concerned?
Thanks for any advice, lawyers of PH...
He has advised he will not be returning to the site and has asked that I save my time listing all the details of the 'deficient work' as he will turn it over to a debt collection agency today.
I had previously sought the assistance of a family member (lawyer) who suggested that rather than suing him (expense, time, stress) I compromise on all the outstanding issues, which I did. In my opinion he has not done all the things he subsequently agreed to do.
So, what happens now? I am happy I am not demanding too much, happy that my concerns are real and relevant, and will be writing to him this weekend to formally identify the areas requiring attention. I always thought an agency would only work if the courts judged I owed the money - true? There has been no arbitration, no hearing etc. Should I be taking any pre-emptive action / making any plans?
He's also warned my credit rating will be affected, but apart from my 'paid-off-monthly' credit card, I never borrow money (no mortgage, hp, loans etc.). Any reason to be concerned?
Thanks for any advice, lawyers of PH...
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 27th August 06:45
Debt collection agencies will take any case if someone pays them, or if they buy the alleged debt at a discount from the alleged creditor. Only a court can adjudge you liable to pay the builder, and he sounds like he is engaging in bluff and bluster, which thus far has had the desired effect of making you nervous. Do not be nervous. It's just a dispute about a modest sum of money. Stay calm, document your concerns. Your credit rating could only be affected if you were to be adjudged liable and failed to pay promptly on the judgment.
No one here can advise you on the details of the dispute unless you say what they are, and this place is no substitute for real advice from someone who owes you a duty of care and is insured to advise you. (I note that you were prepared to spend 125K on building works but want your legal advice for free from a car forum.)
Also, if, as you say, you know a lawyer who has helped you before (and the advice you were given sounds sensible to me), then why not ask him for advice again? Here all you will get is a bunch of anonymous people who may like cars a bit. 99.99999 per cent of the so called advice posted in this Forum is total b
ks written by people in pubs who haven't the first clue what they are talking about.
No one here can advise you on the details of the dispute unless you say what they are, and this place is no substitute for real advice from someone who owes you a duty of care and is insured to advise you. (I note that you were prepared to spend 125K on building works but want your legal advice for free from a car forum.)
Also, if, as you say, you know a lawyer who has helped you before (and the advice you were given sounds sensible to me), then why not ask him for advice again? Here all you will get is a bunch of anonymous people who may like cars a bit. 99.99999 per cent of the so called advice posted in this Forum is total b
ks written by people in pubs who haven't the first clue what they are talking about. I infer not. People not infrequently enter into major works with five or six figure prices and don't bother to agree terms in writing in advance of the work starting. At work I am kept busy by sometimes multi milion quid disputes between businesses that thought that hiring a lawyer at the outset to sort out a contract was a needless expense. Well, now they have a dispute and have both hired a whole bunch of lawyers who all cost more than the single lawyer who could have sorted the contract for them at the start, so that went well. Of course, having a fancy-ass contract is no guarantee that you won't still have a dispute but it can make the dispute easier to deal with if it happens.
Breadvan72 said:
Debt collection agencies will take any case if someone pays them, or if they buy the alleged debt at a discount from the alleged creditor. Only a court can adjudge you liable to pay the builder, and he sounds like he is engaging in bluff and bluster, which thus far has had the desired effect of making you nervous. Do not be nervous. It's just a dispute about a modest sum of money. Stay calm, document your concerns. Your credit rating could only be affected if you were to be adjudged liable and failed to pay promptly on the judgment.
No one here can advise you on the details of the dispute unless you say what they are, and this place is no substitute for real advice from someone who owes you a duty of care and is insured to advise you. (I note that you were prepared to spend 125K on building works but want your legal advice for free from a car forum.)
Also, if, as you say, you know a lawyer who has helped you before (and the advice you were given sounds sensible to me), then why not ask him for advice again? Here all you will get is a bunch of anonymous people who may like cars a bit. 99.99999 per cent of the so called advice posted in this Forum is total bks written by people in pubs who haven't the first clue what they are talking about.
Thanks breadvan72. I was hoping someone like you would respond - it's really appreciated. I understand the makeup of the forum but there are usually one or two people who "know" and I like to think I can recognise them. And you really shouldn't talk about Tonker like that :-)...No one here can advise you on the details of the dispute unless you say what they are, and this place is no substitute for real advice from someone who owes you a duty of care and is insured to advise you. (I note that you were prepared to spend 125K on building works but want your legal advice for free from a car forum.)
Also, if, as you say, you know a lawyer who has helped you before (and the advice you were given sounds sensible to me), then why not ask him for advice again? Here all you will get is a bunch of anonymous people who may like cars a bit. 99.99999 per cent of the so called advice posted in this Forum is total b
ks written by people in pubs who haven't the first clue what they are talking about.I would / will be talking with my uncle (the lawyer) but I'm abroad until Saturday and having received numerous emails last night and this morning from an increasingly irate builder, I did / do feel a little nervous. Another thing to deal with I suppose. I will write to the builder this weekend highlighting all the areas of concern. I'm quite good at keeping things measured and sensible, unlike the builder who sometimes appears to be 15, not 45.
There is a contract, it's a standard Builders Federation (or some body like that - I'm not at home) contract, Clapham GT3. I remember he didn't want a penalty clause for late finishing (7 months thus became 18...), not sure about the retention at the end, but I'll look at it, thanks.
I've probably been naive - paying invoices for, say, windows, to be told the finishing touches would be done later. What subsquently happens is there is a distinct lack of interest when the prospect of big cheques coming through finishes and I've had a pretty miserable time trying to get him to finish work. Next build I'll sharpen up at the beginning, pay more attention to the Contract, and be a bit more hard nosed about things.
I've probably been naive - paying invoices for, say, windows, to be told the finishing touches would be done later. What subsquently happens is there is a distinct lack of interest when the prospect of big cheques coming through finishes and I've had a pretty miserable time trying to get him to finish work. Next build I'll sharpen up at the beginning, pay more attention to the Contract, and be a bit more hard nosed about things.
IANAL but I'm also not in the pub yet 
.
It's hard to imagine that any formal contract (or verbal one come to that) would require final payments to be made when there is still work uncompleted. I'd be inclined to give him the list and tell him that he's got 14 days to respond and start repairs or you will contract the work out and apply the outstanding money towards the cost.
If he decides to issue against you there is still the option to pay if you don't want the trouble and if a debt collection agency does get involved (pretty unlikely I would think) then showing them the list and timescale set should calm them down.
It sounds like a lot of posturing to me and I suspect he will be backing down pretty quickly (and probably walking away rather than fixing the faults) once you've called his bluff.
. It's hard to imagine that any formal contract (or verbal one come to that) would require final payments to be made when there is still work uncompleted. I'd be inclined to give him the list and tell him that he's got 14 days to respond and start repairs or you will contract the work out and apply the outstanding money towards the cost.
If he decides to issue against you there is still the option to pay if you don't want the trouble and if a debt collection agency does get involved (pretty unlikely I would think) then showing them the list and timescale set should calm them down.
It sounds like a lot of posturing to me and I suspect he will be backing down pretty quickly (and probably walking away rather than fixing the faults) once you've called his bluff.
I have had not-inconsiderable direct practical experience of this, from both ends!
I don't know your circumstances, nor all the facts, however my last involvement with builders appears to be similar, as are the suggested figures.
It seems thatmany some builders lose interest in a job when they have had almost all of the money has been collected, and in my case I had held back about 2k until the snagging had been completed. My builder did not make any comment regarding the outstanding items, yet still demanded the balance, so when it became obvious that he was disinterested in completing the work within a reasonable time, I wrote a letter (signed for) outlining the items in dispute giving him 14 days to complete before commissioning someone else to conduct the remedial work, and if that work cost more that the outstanding amount, I would seek to recover from him. I took pictures of all the issues, copy sent to him.
As expected, he did not reply within the given time, but instead threatened to sue me. I said go ahead as I would make a counter-claim.
It has now been 6 years with no sign of him, and his business went bust 2 years after the completion of my job... and then set up a new company smartish!
I don't know your circumstances, nor all the facts, however my last involvement with builders appears to be similar, as are the suggested figures.
It seems that
As expected, he did not reply within the given time, but instead threatened to sue me. I said go ahead as I would make a counter-claim.
It has now been 6 years with no sign of him, and his business went bust 2 years after the completion of my job... and then set up a new company smartish!
Edited by 3Dee on Wednesday 27th August 10:20
Thirty some years ago, I engaged an architect to draw up plans for my present home, obtain planning permission and three building contractors quotations. I was then faced with three very differing priced quotations, from £80k to £140k. I approached my then solicitor for advice, do I take the cheapest quote, or go for the more expensive contractor's quotation. The advice I was given was that if I engaged a person to overview the building contract, and an adequate legal contract drawn up, with stage payments, then I should go for the cheapest quote.
So I went for the cheapest quote, and once the contract was signed, the builder seemed to be looking at every possible way to cut corners, the same to reduce costs and increase his profit.
As with the OP, prior to making the last stage payment, i drew up a list of works that needed either completing or were not up to standard, ie plasterboard nails to fix skirting boards, poorly stained woodwork etc. etc.
We both engaged solicitors, resulting in both sides agreeing to arbitration, with an independent architect inspecting the building works, resulting in the claim from the builder being reduced by 50%. For the stress, time, bad feelings, monies involved through engaging solicitors and the architect, we would have been better in both cutting our losses and going 50-50 on the last stage payment
So I went for the cheapest quote, and once the contract was signed, the builder seemed to be looking at every possible way to cut corners, the same to reduce costs and increase his profit.
As with the OP, prior to making the last stage payment, i drew up a list of works that needed either completing or were not up to standard, ie plasterboard nails to fix skirting boards, poorly stained woodwork etc. etc.
We both engaged solicitors, resulting in both sides agreeing to arbitration, with an independent architect inspecting the building works, resulting in the claim from the builder being reduced by 50%. For the stress, time, bad feelings, monies involved through engaging solicitors and the architect, we would have been better in both cutting our losses and going 50-50 on the last stage payment
Breadvan72 said:
Your credit rating could only be affected if you were to be adjudged liable and failed to pay promptly on the judgment.
Great advice from BV - but this is the important bit, don't worry.There's nothing practical he can do. A debt collection company won't come calling, and if they write, you tell them of the dispute and they stop.
What has happened to you is rather common. Think of the builder's works like a graph. At the start they are doing big chunks of work for big money. Towards the end they are doing all the annoying snags for very little money.
All while they have a new client waiting for building works to start for big chunks of money again.
Exactly the same happened to my parents in law. The friendly builder popped round for half of the last stage payment, and they never saw him again. The snags were left, and he just forgot about the last 5% of the bill as it was more profitable leaving it.
He's bluffing you.
All you can do is keep things formal and concise. If you can get an independent builder to have a look to give an opinion that's an option, at least you can put to him that he needs to do X, Y and Z to get paid.
Your builder sounds like an unprofessional who has been taking the piss for a number of months because you paid every invoice on time without querying either the delays or the quality of the work.
Get a solicitor to look at the contract.
The builder has an implied duty to complete the work with reasonable care and skill.
Compile a full snagging list with no compromise as to quality. Have another builder provide a quote for rectifying all at the issues.
Then have a discussion with your 'builder' about rectification.
A good solicitor will be very very useful.
who has been taking the piss for a number of months because you paid every invoice on time without querying either the delays or the quality of the work.Get a solicitor to look at the contract.
The builder has an implied duty to complete the work with reasonable care and skill.
Compile a full snagging list with no compromise as to quality. Have another builder provide a quote for rectifying all at the issues.
Then have a discussion with your 'builder' about rectification.
A good solicitor will be very very useful.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with a solicitor at this stage. Just make sure you have good quality photo's of the outstanding work + a written list of those items and what is wrong, then if you feel inclined go get a quote as others have said for finishing the job.
I would guess the builder will bluster for a bit until he knows he is on a loser. Only if things turn for the worse regarding harassment would I involve a solicitor, cos if you have been reasonable (recorded letter asking him to complete, then you will pay, including reasonable timescales etc), no court will find in his favour, unless, of course, this is not the whole story.
I would guess the builder will bluster for a bit until he knows he is on a loser. Only if things turn for the worse regarding harassment would I involve a solicitor, cos if you have been reasonable (recorded letter asking him to complete, then you will pay, including reasonable timescales etc), no court will find in his favour, unless, of course, this is not the whole story.
Breadvan72 said:
I infer not. People not infrequently enter into major works with five or six figure prices and don't bother to agree terms in writing in advance of the work starting. At work I am kept busy by sometimes multi milion quid disputes between businesses that thought that hiring a lawyer at the outset to sort out a contract was a needless expense. Well, now they have a dispute and have both hired a whole bunch of lawyers who all cost more than the single lawyer who could have sorted the contract for them at the start, so that went well. Of course, having a fancy-ass contract is no guarantee that you won't still have a dispute but it can make the dispute easier to deal with if it happens.
Good job for you that people are stupid though 
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