Frustrated Paramedic
Discussion
Mk3Spitfire said:
Sheepshanks said:
If the job was simple, anybody could do it.
There's also a lot better things I could be doing.But just because something is ambiguous and requires a disproportion amount of (police)work it should not necessarily be dropped. I feel strongly about this having had Police shrug their shoulders in a conciliatory manner when a crime was deemed not 'worthy' of their time - believe me, as the victim, I deemed it worthy!
Edited by DoubleSix on Monday 1st September 22:38
mph1977 said:
- and before the recent Manchester Hatzola case is brought up - the judges avoided settign precedent there and it remains that Manchester Hatzola are not CQC registered and do not operate with the cooperation of NWAS who are the statutory 999 Ambulance agency for Manchester.
But the court of appeal did set a precedent with the Hatzola case, they clearly said that for Ambulance Purposes it has to be an Ambulance and to be an Ambulance it has to specially made or adapted to carry the sick or injured. This created a bit of a flat spin with all RRVs & Bikes instantly non compliant. It took the Secretary of State for Transport just over a week before he stood in Parliament on the 1st April and made a clarifying statement that described the entire area of legislation surrounding blue light use and exemptions as a "car crash", the statement then said that with immediate effect the law was being changed (thus reversing the precedent) to allow vehicles "under the direct control of an NHS Ambulance Trust" to operate under blue lights and sirens, this pretty much outlawed the Hatzolas of the world while still allowing legitimate RRV/Bikes to operate, but for over a week there was a big question mark. He also clarified that if local policy allowed it First Responders could operate under blues but they had to be permanently fixed and very specifically identified, it made a point of stating that blinky pots and covert lights were a no no for First Responders.Oh and it looks like Section 19 results will be announced within the next couple of weeks and ratified before christmas.
Believe it or not I once got road rage of a St. John's ambulance driver! Takes all sorts.
Ambulance being driven below speed limit so overtook nice Sunday afternoon why not. Anyway get behind the car in front and it's slams on the brakes last minute and turns off with not signal. Ambulance gets up my bum and stays there and driver shakes his hand at me. Driver continues to keep closing on me and showing signs of aggression, so I allow him to pass me and follow hIm to hospital. Ask his what he was doing and he doesn't have a patient on board etc. he moans about me overtaking and I moan he is driving aggressively in a St. John's ambulance and he doesn't seem to see an issue.
Ambulance being driven below speed limit so overtook nice Sunday afternoon why not. Anyway get behind the car in front and it's slams on the brakes last minute and turns off with not signal. Ambulance gets up my bum and stays there and driver shakes his hand at me. Driver continues to keep closing on me and showing signs of aggression, so I allow him to pass me and follow hIm to hospital. Ask his what he was doing and he doesn't have a patient on board etc. he moans about me overtaking and I moan he is driving aggressively in a St. John's ambulance and he doesn't seem to see an issue.
Edited by jbsportstech on Monday 1st September 22:44
I'd agree that there are very few (if any!) ways where it's legal for somebody other than a police officer to use blue lights to signal to a member of the public for something such as speeding/bad driving.
AFAIK it's almost unheard of for medical professionals to have blue lights on a personal vehicle - indeed I think the only personal vehicles to have them are fire officers who used their own vehicles to attend incidents (although even this may not happen any more).
All I can think is that the person works for a private medical company where the managers and other staff have a fairly lax attitude to such things.
AFAIK it's almost unheard of for medical professionals to have blue lights on a personal vehicle - indeed I think the only personal vehicles to have them are fire officers who used their own vehicles to attend incidents (although even this may not happen any more).
All I can think is that the person works for a private medical company where the managers and other staff have a fairly lax attitude to such things.
Edited by Gareth79 on Tuesday 2nd September 00:22
jbsportstech said:
Believe it or not I once got road rage of a St. John's ambulance driver! Takes all sorts.
Ambulance being driven below speed limit so overtook nice Sunday afternoon why not. Anyway get behind the car in front and it's slams on the brakes last minute and turns off with not signal. Ambulance gets up my bum and stays there and driver shakes his hand at me. Driver continues to keep closing on me and showing signs of aggression, so I allow him to pass me and follow hIm to hospital. Ask his what he was doing and he doesn't have a patient on board etc. he moans about me overtaking and I moan he is driving aggressively in a St. John's ambulance and he doesn't seem to see an issue.
when and where was that ? Ambulance being driven below speed limit so overtook nice Sunday afternoon why not. Anyway get behind the car in front and it's slams on the brakes last minute and turns off with not signal. Ambulance gets up my bum and stays there and driver shakes his hand at me. Driver continues to keep closing on me and showing signs of aggression, so I allow him to pass me and follow hIm to hospital. Ask his what he was doing and he doesn't have a patient on board etc. he moans about me overtaking and I moan he is driving aggressively in a St. John's ambulance and he doesn't seem to see an issue.
Edited by jbsportstech on Monday 1st September 22:44
I only ask for two reasons
1. if it was prior to 2012 there were some localities under the old arrangmeents who had very lax enforcement of the driving policies and the training was less than it was purported to be.
2.I have contacts in the driving Standards or Ambulance Operational management in a number of the post 2012 SJA regions and could find details quite easily for other regions .
Gareth79 said:
I'd agree that there are very few (if any!) ways where it's legal for somebody other than a police officer to use blue lights to signal to a member of the public for something such as speeding/bad driving.
AFAIK it's almost unheard of for medical professionals to have blue lights on a personal vehicle - indeed I think the only personal vehicles to have them are fire officers who used their own vehicles to attend incidents (although even this may not happen any more).
All I can think is that the person works for a private medical company where the managers and other staff have a fairly lax attitude to such things.
Certainly my senior fire officer friend has a fully liveried fire car at home when he is on call.AFAIK it's almost unheard of for medical professionals to have blue lights on a personal vehicle - indeed I think the only personal vehicles to have them are fire officers who used their own vehicles to attend incidents (although even this may not happen any more).
All I can think is that the person works for a private medical company where the managers and other staff have a fairly lax attitude to such things.
Edited by Gareth79 on Tuesday 2nd September 00:22
I also have a senior Met friend (DCI, I think) who is involved in all sorts of secret squirrel stuff, and he doesn't have lights on his car (not even really covert ones!) and he is more likely than anyone to need them.
Gareth79 said:
AFAIK it's almost unheard of for medical professionals to have blue lights on a personal vehicle - indeed I think the only personal vehicles to have them are fire officers who used their own vehicles to attend incidents (although even this may not happen any more).
Our managers all have the hidden blue lights fitted to Trust vehicles, which are mainly boring estates, however the BASICS guys can use their own vehicle's, fitted out with hidden blue lights.Basically they are specialst paramedics and doctors that normally work on the helicopter, and in their spare time they can sign up (via the 999 call centre) to be available for calls. So if something really serious was to happen, or if us ground crews would need some assistance during the night (when the helicopter doesn't fly) they can send out a BASICS crew, who will respond in their own personal vehicle.
2 of my mates work for them, 1 drives a VW T5 campervan which does look a bit odd arriving on blue lights, but the other one drives an Audi RS6 which must be great fun to drive at night when he gets called.
I will confess to doing something similar, no where near as extreme and I would never dream of actually pulling someone over but this was the scenario.
11pm and I was driving a fully marked with full lightbar Air Ambulance 4x4, I was on a fairly fast single carriage way B road with a NSL in place. I caught up a hire van doing about 35-40 on a stretch where 50-60 would have been comfortable. It was no big deal to me as I was in no rush so I sat back a nice distance behind the van. However what became pretty clear, pretty quickly was that there was a "dawdler" in a car in front of the van and at a guess there was some history or something had been going on before I caught up. Anyway the road undulates a fair bit and they are the kind of big dips that warrant double white lines as you never know what is over the next crest, so on one of these straights with double solid whites the van pulls out for an overtake, the car then does no more than also move over to the wrong side of the road to block him! This causes me to do a sharp intake of breath and drop way way back as I have no intention of getting mixed up in their little road ragey dispute. So move forward another few hundred yards and the car has slowed right down to 20 ish and is again on the wrong side of the road blocking van man.
This was only ever going to end in tears and being inherently lazy and with no desire to actually have to stop and do anything when these two ended up in a tangled mess of blood and metal (no doubt along with the innocent coming in the other direction) I flicked on my blues and gave them a short enough burst so they knew I was there, then shut them off. The van pulled over almost straight away into a layby, I drove straight past and he re joined behind me, the car then accelerated up to a more appropriate speed and we all carried on in a much more sensible manner, with me inbetween the two idiots. This carried on for another couple of miles until the road split and the car went in the opposite direction to which I was going, I branched off and as I went the van followed the car again. The last I saw was a bit of headlight flashing starting up.
Being selfish, at that point it was no longer my problem, they were not in front of me and I would not have to stop when an incident happened, I'm not a copper and it's not my job to either police, judge or reprimand other road users. However the quick flash of blue I'd given them had (temporarily) defused the situation or at least prevented anything happening that I might have been caught up in. I felt it was justified, but was technically outside of my authorisation (could be argued that I was using them to warn of a hazard which is permitted and correct) But the truth was I simply didn't want to have to get involved when the inevitable happened.
11pm and I was driving a fully marked with full lightbar Air Ambulance 4x4, I was on a fairly fast single carriage way B road with a NSL in place. I caught up a hire van doing about 35-40 on a stretch where 50-60 would have been comfortable. It was no big deal to me as I was in no rush so I sat back a nice distance behind the van. However what became pretty clear, pretty quickly was that there was a "dawdler" in a car in front of the van and at a guess there was some history or something had been going on before I caught up. Anyway the road undulates a fair bit and they are the kind of big dips that warrant double white lines as you never know what is over the next crest, so on one of these straights with double solid whites the van pulls out for an overtake, the car then does no more than also move over to the wrong side of the road to block him! This causes me to do a sharp intake of breath and drop way way back as I have no intention of getting mixed up in their little road ragey dispute. So move forward another few hundred yards and the car has slowed right down to 20 ish and is again on the wrong side of the road blocking van man.
This was only ever going to end in tears and being inherently lazy and with no desire to actually have to stop and do anything when these two ended up in a tangled mess of blood and metal (no doubt along with the innocent coming in the other direction) I flicked on my blues and gave them a short enough burst so they knew I was there, then shut them off. The van pulled over almost straight away into a layby, I drove straight past and he re joined behind me, the car then accelerated up to a more appropriate speed and we all carried on in a much more sensible manner, with me inbetween the two idiots. This carried on for another couple of miles until the road split and the car went in the opposite direction to which I was going, I branched off and as I went the van followed the car again. The last I saw was a bit of headlight flashing starting up.
Being selfish, at that point it was no longer my problem, they were not in front of me and I would not have to stop when an incident happened, I'm not a copper and it's not my job to either police, judge or reprimand other road users. However the quick flash of blue I'd given them had (temporarily) defused the situation or at least prevented anything happening that I might have been caught up in. I felt it was justified, but was technically outside of my authorisation (could be argued that I was using them to warn of a hazard which is permitted and correct) But the truth was I simply didn't want to have to get involved when the inevitable happened.
mph1977 said:
when and where was that ?
I only ask for two reasons
1. if it was prior to 2012 there were some localities under the old arrangmeents who had very lax enforcement of the driving policies and the training was less than it was purported to be.
2.I have contacts in the driving Standards or Ambulance Operational management in a number of the post 2012 SJA regions and could find details quite easily for other regions .
It would of been a few years ago now yes 2010 maybe on the a38 from wellington to taunton. Had the car in front not ended up not braking sharply and turning off I doubt there would have been a problem but because it was so soon after my overtake it seem to upset the ambo driver and he seemed to blame me.I only ask for two reasons
1. if it was prior to 2012 there were some localities under the old arrangmeents who had very lax enforcement of the driving policies and the training was less than it was purported to be.
2.I have contacts in the driving Standards or Ambulance Operational management in a number of the post 2012 SJA regions and could find details quite easily for other regions .
I didn't report it as the guy seemed nice enough and wasn't at all aggressive when we got out of the ambulance at musgrove park hospital but (forgot to mention he did flash his headlights at me) just thought he shouldn't be displaying signs of road rage in SJA Ambulance but having said that I have yet to meet a well driven SJA Ambo I have been cut up by the local ones on roundabouts around taunton several times but never seen road rage form them since. Volunteers are never going to be a competent as serving paramedics.
mel said:
mph1977 said:
- and before the recent Manchester Hatzola case is brought up - the judges avoided settign precedent there and it remains that Manchester Hatzola are not CQC registered and do not operate with the cooperation of NWAS who are the statutory 999 Ambulance agency for Manchester.
But the court of appeal did set a precedent with the Hatzola case, they clearly said that for Ambulance Purposes it has to be an Ambulance and to be an Ambulance it has to specially made or adapted to carry the sick or injured. This created a bit of a flat spin with all RRVs & Bikes instantly non compliant. It took the Secretary of State for Transport just over a week before he stood in Parliament on the 1st April and made a clarifying statement that described the entire area of legislation surrounding blue light use and exemptions as a "car crash", the statement then said that with immediate effect the law was being changed (thus reversing the precedent) to allow vehicles "under the direct control of an NHS Ambulance Trust" to operate under blue lights and sirens, this pretty much outlawed the Hatzolas of the world while still allowing legitimate RRV/Bikes to operate, but for over a week there was a big question mark. He also clarified that if local policy allowed it First Responders could operate under blues but they had to be permanently fixed and very specifically identified, it made a point of stating that blinky pots and covert lights were a no no for First Responders.Oh and it looks like Section 19 results will be announced within the next couple of weeks and ratified before christmas.
matchmaker said:
Where does that place non-NHS ambulances?
I think it has to be read with the original judgement where they defined (or tried to) Ambulances.
If it’s built as described it’s still ok. The ruling from the minister was to encompass Fast response stuff (bikes etc) not built for transportation.
covboy said:
matchmaker said:
Where does that place non-NHS ambulances?
I think it has to be read with the original judgement where they defined (or tried to) Ambulances.
If it’s built as described it’s still ok. The ruling from the minister was to encompass Fast response stuff (bikes etc) not built for transportation.
Ambulance Purposes, a vehicle that is under the direct control of an NHS Ambulance Trust. Note the word "control" it doesn't matter who owns or operates it, but it's despatch and control has to come from an NHS Ambulance Trust Control Room to fit the definition.
So St John Ambulance can still have RRV's & Bikes (I heard the other week they'd taken their bikes off the road but this is unconfirmed and rumour) as can all the rest of the CQC registered private contractors, and Charities that support the NHS but their despatch must be as described for them to fit the definition. Hatzola were/are a religious closed community response group that were in no way under the control of the NHS, it all sounded very fishy.
mph1977 said:
First responders and green flashing beacons - no greens are for Dcotors who are not responding on behalf of a legitimate Ambulance Service ( as if they are responding on behalf of an ambulance service they use blues under 'ambulance purposes' - dual lit vehicles ( e.g. the London HEMS cars and some of the other ground vehicles operated by the Doctor carrying Air Ambulances / ground based Mobile Medical teams ) tend to be using the greens as a 'badge of office' to identify the MERIT vehicle from ordinary RRVs/ Officer cars - and before the recent Manchester Hatzola case is brought up - the judges avoided settign precedent there and it remains that Manchester Hatzola are not CQC registered and do not operate with the cooperation of NWAS who are the statutory 999 Ambulance agency for Manchester.
What is the difference between the blue and green lights? I've always wondered why the HEMS car carries both? I presume they give different dispensations?Edited by mph1977 on Monday 1st September 10:09
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff