Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
The CPS may indeed be tasked with a back pedaling exercise. The police so over played their hand that now it is hard for them to back down without looking stupid. Modern public bodies are sadly obsessed with reputation and face saving (a bit odd, as they have no legally protectable reputations).
It's not really modern is it. Those with power have always done this. Everyone will blame everyone, until everyone forgets about it.
Russ T Bolt said:
You do realise that the NHS already funds this treatment for some people and that from 2018 the facilities will be available in the UK.
As treatment for a completely different condition. It is this sort of idiocracy leading to using anti-biotics for treating virus and blight of anti-biotic resistance.The funding is for a research facility and trial not a treatment center.
Martin4x4 said:
No, come on you are losing your normal razor sharp focus. They haven't been imprisoned for a difference of opinion, it is because they fled abroad, in secret, endangering the child and are refusing to return and continue treatment.
minor point, but they had not agreed or started 'treatment' as you put it.Martin4x4 said:
As treatment for a completely different condition. It is this sort of idiocracy leading to using anti-biotics for treating virus and blight of anti-biotic resistance.
The funding is for a research facility and trial not a treatment center.
You may be entirely right about the treatment, however that is not the point at issue. The funding is for a research facility and trial not a treatment center.
What criminal offence do say was committed by the parents in removing their child from the hospital?
this case is kind of interesting in the context..
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-09-01/proton-therapy-...
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-09-01/proton-therapy-...
Martin4x4 said:
Breadvan72 said:
The efficacy of the proton treatment isn't the issue. I am no fan of try any old thing medicine, but the issue here is a civil liberties issue. The parents had a difference of opinion with the medics and this has led to an Interpol hunt and the parents being imprisoned. That is a disgrace.
No, come on you are losing your normal razor sharp focus. They haven't been imprisoned for a difference of opinion, it is because they fled abroad, in secret, endangering the child and are refusing to return and continue treatment. If they did return with him they would not be imprisoned. They have endaged him and they are absolutely responsible for the situation they are in.
The Human Rights of the child trump the civil liberties of the parent to bloody minded.
Endangered the child? Do you have some evidence for that assertion?
Take off your "the State is always right" specs and look at what actually happened here.
Identify which human right of the child has been infringed here. Oh, none. Whoops.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 2nd September 09:00
Martin4x4 said:
This whole thing is turning into a replay of the MMR controversy, questioning the conventional well proven treatment bigging up a controversal alternative treatment.
Unless some rationality is injected into this discussion it will only lead to tragedy.
So basically "We know best and if you dare to disagree we'll try to lock you up"?Unless some rationality is injected into this discussion it will only lead to tragedy.
Martin4x4 said:
This whole thing is turning into a replay of the MMR controversy, questioning the conventional well proven treatment bigging up a controversal alternative treatment.
how so?this is not some hair-brained quackery, it's the next generation of therapies.
the UK currently only has Proton Beam used for optometry, these a plan to have two new installs for 2018(?).
the US and Japan have had it for some time, as have some private clinics in the EU.
as usual, the NHS is behind the curve.
http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2013/09/16...
TheProfessor said:
The parents have shown they purchased the correct “food” that the child was being fed on at the hospital........
The parents have shown they purchased the correct feeding pump used to feed the correct food..........
Assuming this is true, Cargo Cult thinking is no replacement for those expert medics.The parents have shown they purchased the correct feeding pump used to feed the correct food..........
Martin4x4 said:
As treatment for a completely different condition. It is this sort of idiocracy leading to using anti-biotics for treating virus and blight of anti-biotic resistance.
The funding is for a research facility and trial not a treatment center.
http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2013/09/16/proton-therapy-is-coming-to-the-uk-but-what-does-it-mean-for-patients/The funding is for a research facility and trial not a treatment center.
This is why I would forever be grateful to people like Vint Cerf.
Even when it is out there that the UK govt are spending £250M to build plus a further £100M to run a proton beam theraphy centre, people like Martin will still tell liesband say stuff like it is a research facility.
Proton beam theraphy is used or the treatment of Medulloblastoma which Ashya suffers from.
It is not a treatment for a completely different condition. It is radiotheraphy which is more targeted.
Maybe this will help you. Its like chosing between an expensive non-drowsy cough syrup and a cheaper one which will make you drowsy.
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hstewie said:
hstewie said:Martin4x4 said:
This whole thing is turning into a replay of the MMR controversy, questioning the conventional well proven treatment bigging up a controversal alternative treatment.
Unless some rationality is injected into this discussion it will only lead to tragedy.
So basically "We know best and if you dare to disagree we'll try to lock you up"?Unless some rationality is injected into this discussion it will only lead to tragedy.
I am having a similar debate on Facebook with a friend who is usually impeccably liberal but has apparently had his head turned on this one by his prejudice against Jehovah's Witnesses (Loonies, of course, but JW is not a factor here), or is for some reason buying into the "they know best" argument.
I reiterate that parents do not own their children, and the child's interests come first, but law and custom place the decision making as to best interests with the parents, absent court intervention. A limited and interim court order is now in place, subject to further argument (the parents have probably not yet been heard on the subject by the court). No one can seriously suggest that the present situation (parents in prison, child separated from parents) serves the child's interests.
Martin4x4 said:
This whole thing is turning into a replay of the MMR controversy, questioning the conventional well proven treatment bigging up a controversal alternative treatment.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2262534/American-parents-awarded-600-000-compensation-son-developed-autism-result-MMR-vaccine.htmlhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2160054/MM...
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/...
True enough. Neither doctors nor vaccines are ever wrong nor dangerous.....
Breadvan72 said:
I reiterate that parents do not own their children, and the child's interests come first, but law and custom place the decision making as to best interests with the parents, absent court intervention. A limited and interim court order is now in place, subject to further argument (the parents have probably not yet been heard on the subject by the court). No one can seriously suggest that the present situation (parents in prison, child separated from parents) serves the child's interests.
I agree with limitations. Parents have few rights over children. They do have responsibilities to them; the child has many rights.I think they may have done the right thing but in the wrong way, if that makes sense. In the current climate of authorities being accused of not protecting children enough, the reaction went to the other end of the spectrum.
The MMR autism link is utter bks, JasandJules. Have a look at the scientific evidence. As for courts, see -
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/0...
ks, JasandJules. Have a look at the scientific evidence. As for courts, see -http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/0...
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 2nd September 09:14
Breadvan72 said:
No, but here there is no evidence that the child was placed at risk.
Your comment about ward leave suggests that you believe that hospitals have some sort of coercive power to detain patients and that if a patient is not discharged he/she is acting unlawfully by leaving hospital. That is to me a worrying point of view. Hospitals have limited and clearly defined powers to detain mental patients. Those are not in play here.
If the facts change, I will change my mind, but the reported facts available at present all point one way. This was a gross over reaction by arrogant and authoritarian minded public bodies. It has led to the parents being taken from their child and thrown in jail. If that isn't a disgrace, it's hard to see what is.
If there's an emergency police protection order on the child due to neglect concerns by the hospital (parents refusing treatment and taking him) that could have been what's triggered it all off. That allegation needs investigating, difficult to do when they people involved have gone to Spain though.Your comment about ward leave suggests that you believe that hospitals have some sort of coercive power to detain patients and that if a patient is not discharged he/she is acting unlawfully by leaving hospital. That is to me a worrying point of view. Hospitals have limited and clearly defined powers to detain mental patients. Those are not in play here.
If the facts change, I will change my mind, but the reported facts available at present all point one way. This was a gross over reaction by arrogant and authoritarian minded public bodies. It has led to the parents being taken from their child and thrown in jail. If that isn't a disgrace, it's hard to see what is.
Greendubber said:
If there's an emergency police protection order on the child due to neglect concerns by the hospital (parents refusing treatment and taking him) that could have been what's triggered it all off. That allegation needs investigating, difficult to do when they people involved have gone to Spain .
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