Discussion
t from here. Seems that the Southampton medics now think they should try Proton Beam Therapy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/11069871/Ashya-K...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/11069871/Ashya-K...
On the other hand, large organisations are constantly learning and evolving. A culture of learning and development creates a stronger organisation than punishment and blame. This is fundamentally because individuals respond better to the former than the latter. It's very easy to be overly cynical with the phrase that is essentially saying "we want to do it better next time" - no bad thing, and better than "we couldn't have done it better", which an omission may suggest.
I also have no doubt the phrase has been misused on occasions.
I also have no doubt the phrase has been misused on occasions.
Breadvan72 said:
Play with words all you like, Derek.
I would suggest that you started it with your demand that rule be used in its legal sense and not as in common usage, at least according to the Concise, by which I am happy to be ruled.Without solid reasons not to, and, if time allows, the opportunity for these to be put to the doctors charged with the care of the child, the police should accept what the doctors say. Whether you call this an opinion or a ruling is neither here nor there.
If a police officer has time, in such situations as these most would refer, but not necessarily defer, to the juvenile liaison/bureau, or whatever the current name is.
I've been in a similar situation. It was in the book I sent you. I was at a Gate, the passengers were boarding, so <half an hour. The parents, no doubt caring and concerned with the welfare of the child, disagreed with the diagnosis. No time to seek a second opinion (but then this was a doctor who specialised in health matters in aircraft, so some pressure there to accept his decision in the matter), no time to contact the JLO, no time to pass the buck, no time to look it up in a book and return all authoritative the following day, no short adjournment as there was no way the plane would miss its slot just because I wanted to think about things.
I was accused of being a 'jobsworth', somewhat lighter than the officer in the case has been called on here, but still indicative of a mindset. Things didn't go their way so they justified their action by blaming someone. So perhaps that is why I sympathise with what was, probably, a dilemma for the officer in charge and feel the need to try and remedy the level of criticism aimed at him/her. I feel I can do this without being either illiberal or authoritarian.
Just for clarification, I don't expect to change opinions, but you never know.
Did the officers in the case do the best they could for the child? We don't know. No pontificating, no long words, no bringing in lexicographers, no attribution can change that. As politicians become involved, the information we have will become less trustworthy with the spin that will be put on it all. It is probable that we will never know the full reasons for the decision by the doctors. But that's no reason, it appears, not to beat up those tasked with making difficult decisions in short time.
All we can say for sure is that those who have already made their minds up will not be swayed towards the alternatives, despite them fitting in with what little we know.
La Liga said:
On the other hand, large organisations are constantly learning and evolving. A culture of learning and development creates a stronger organisation than punishment and blame. This is fundamentally because individuals respond better to the former than the latter. It's very easy to be overly cynical with the phrase that is essentially saying "we want to do it better next time" - no bad thing, and better than "we couldn't have done it better", which an omission may suggest.
I was on a special operations unit in the late 70s and our sergeant, excellent chap, had a debrief after every incident we were involved in. These were not particularly polished but we all reckoned we got a lot out of them. There was a sense of 'no blame' which, ironically, allowed us to criticise others on the team. Such debriefs were, to the amusement of others, somewhat unusual but our performance improved no end. There was an assumption that every person involved did their best and wanted to get better. Which was, in my 30 years, more or less correct. Once established as the norm, such debriefs are excellent for ensuring that simple errors are eradicated. Further, it is hardly unusual to find that one officer/unit feels that they made an error which caused problems. Once it is looked into by the group, it is often found that the person did the right thing so you get the situation where no trying to learn lessons would have meant a person not doing their best the next time.
As you say, we want to do it better next time is better than we can't be arsed to improve.
Derek Smith said:
I was on a special operations unit in the late 70s and our sergeant, excellent chap, had a debrief after every incident we were involved in. These were not particularly polished but we all reckoned we got a lot out of them. There was a sense of 'no blame' which, ironically, allowed us to criticise others on the team. Such debriefs were, to the amusement of others, somewhat unusual but our performance improved no end. There was an assumption that every person involved did their best and wanted to get better. Which was, in my 30 years, more or less correct.
Once established as the norm, such debriefs are excellent for ensuring that simple errors are eradicated. Further, it is hardly unusual to find that one officer/unit feels that they made an error which caused problems. Once it is looked into by the group, it is often found that the person did the right thing so you get the situation where no trying to learn lessons would have meant a person not doing their best the next time.
As you say, we want to do it better next time is better than we can't be arsed to improve.
I entirely agree with that approach. It is not however one much evident in the "NHS" where the blame culture thrives. Once established as the norm, such debriefs are excellent for ensuring that simple errors are eradicated. Further, it is hardly unusual to find that one officer/unit feels that they made an error which caused problems. Once it is looked into by the group, it is often found that the person did the right thing so you get the situation where no trying to learn lessons would have meant a person not doing their best the next time.
As you say, we want to do it better next time is better than we can't be arsed to improve.
Sir Robert Francis is reviewing the devastation wrought on those brave enough to identify patient safety failures. As he said, if the airline industry took the same approach to safety as the "NHS", planes would be falling out of the sky.
Edited by IanA2 on Tuesday 2nd September 16:59
Breadvan72 said:
Good result so far, but there is still the question of the 'Ward of Court' bit, so it is unclear what happens next!IanA2 said:
I entirely agree with that approach. It is not however one much evident in the "NHS" where the blame culture thrives.
Sir Robert Francis is reviewing the devastation wrought on those brave enough to identify patient safety failures. As he said, if the airline industry took the same approach to safety as the "NHS" planes would be falling out of the sky.
Point taken. And the blame culture thrived in the police in my time. Those still in my force and whom I am in contact with, suggest it has got worse.Sir Robert Francis is reviewing the devastation wrought on those brave enough to identify patient safety failures. As he said, if the airline industry took the same approach to safety as the "NHS" planes would be falling out of the sky.
In my time we used to have 'hot' debriefs, in other words (and how) not minuted but just a precis of the points raised being recorded. Then it would be word of mouth to my fellow inspectors and everyone got the benefit.
Lurking Lawyer said:
3Dee said:
Good result so far, but there is still the question of the 'Ward of Court' bit, so it is unclear what happens next!
I mentioned earlier that this is apparently back in court again tomorrow, so I wouldn't be surprised to see that order go the same way as the EAW.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff