Ashya King

Author
Discussion

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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Scuffers said:
You're jesting i know, but i bet something like this will inevitably happen.

Every time plot get some new power on the basis of security etc, they almost always use it for something totally unconnected.

Like oap's being arrested under anti terrorist legislation etc..

Basically, history has shown us pc plod can't be trusted.
I was jesting, but it was reported on the BBC the way the parents of Ashya King have been arrested and detained used some 'fast track' EU agreement that came about to aid dealing with terrorists.

I bet the Kings exceeded a speed limit en route to Spain, but I doubt they stopped in any town centres taking photos like terrorists do.

Terrorists go on the Internet. We're on the Internet. How do we know we're not terrorists?

How do we prove we're not terrorists?

Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 2nd September 21:09

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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XCP said:
Has it been revealed why the parents took the child to Spain without telling the hospital?
Is it because we don't have to tell the hospital where we are going?

Did I hear on TV (had guests so was talking not watching) that "all charges" have been dropped.

johnao

667 posts

242 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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Derek Smith said:
Did the officers in the case do the best they could for the child? We don't know. No pontificating, no long words, no bringing in lexicographers, no attribution can change that. As politicians become involved, the information we have will become less trustworthy with the spin that will be put on it all. It is probable that we will never know the full reasons for the decision by the doctors. [ironic mode on] But that's no reason, it appears, not to beat up those tasked with making difficult decisions in short time.[ironic mode off].
Nobody is criticising the initial decision, and action taken, to locate the boy and his family; even if that involved an EAW. The criticism is of the authorities failure to react immediately and withdraw the EAW when it became clear that the child was not in grave danger and before the the parents were arrested. On 30th August Assistant Chief Constable Chris Shead said... "Although the arrest warrant was "based around neglect", Mr Shead said this did not necessarily mean the parents would be charged with that offence."It purely gives us the power to arrest and then we will be able to speak to them," he said." As soon as the family's circumstances were revealed in Spain it was clear within hours that the police didn't have any grounds... "to speak to them".

The parents were located and arrested on 31st August. But, it's taken 48 hours for the authorities... "tasked with taking difficult decisions"... to come to the same conclusion that was patently obvious to everyone else within hours of the family being located on the 31st August. It seems that the spirit of slow, arcane law processes that gave rise to Bleak House are still alive and well in the United Kingdom.


Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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johnao said:
Nobody is criticising the initial decision, and action taken, to locate the boy and his family;
Well, i for one, am.

This whole sad saga should never have happened, the failures were obviously several days before they left, and one they had, how was issuing warrants and reading relatives houses ever going to help?

jensenhealey2

162 posts

158 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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Seems he parents have th hospital in the cross-hairs already.

http://news.sky.com/story/1328965/ashya-cps-drops-case-against-boys-parents

I would have thought the Hampshire plod must also be looking for the chqeuebook, just in case; and quite right too. I am totally with BV on this, its an ourageous use of state power against people who we can now say clearly and confidently have done no wrong.


ED209

5,740 posts

243 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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As with a lot of things in policing this decision making model applies in this case.


screen shot windows 7

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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Scuffers said:
johnao said:
Nobody is criticising the initial decision, and action taken, to locate the boy and his family;
Well, i for one, am.

...
I am too.

Interpol? Arrest warrant?

The Chief Constable says the warrant was obtained to ensure that the child was safe. Helloooooo, Mr Chief Constable, do the words "Arrest Warrant" not have any meaning to you? Call me naive, but I always thought that an Arrest Warrant was a warrant to arrest someone.




Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 2nd September 22:06

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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Dumb and dumber.

Vaud

50,291 posts

154 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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I think the family took the right actions in the wrong manner.

I think the police reacted in the right way initially based on the actions of the family but followed it up badly by being too slow to evolving circumstances.

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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ED209 said:
As with a lot of things in policing this decision making model applies in this case.


screen shot windows 7
It lacks the symmetrical aesthetic of the National Decision Making Model. wink

They didn't do 'Identify Options and Contingencies' at 7 o'clock. wink

If we use this fast track extradition power that we're supposed to use for terrorists are we going to risk looking heavy handed and power crazed and demonstrate a lack of proportionality and a complete lack of empathy?

And will it look like we're misusing a tool in the box to deal with terrorists for people that have done nothing or little wrong? Again?

'Take Action and Review What Happened'?

Well you got your man and his wife, and made them look like criminals when all they were doing was trying to help their unwell child.

Review what happened? You just made yourselves look heavy handed and lost some more public respect.

Was the NHS pulling the police's strings on this?

Sensationalist news coverage hasn't helped show the police in a good light? Did the police and the media fail to work together on this, just as they could have worked better on the Sir Cliff Richard raid?


'PLAN'?

Proportionate? No.
Legal? I guess so.
Authorised/Accountable? I assume it was authorised? Accountable? Well you're getting the backlash now. Accountable? The CPS have dropped charges.
Necessary? No.

I think it only ticks two PLAN boxes. Some may say it ticks 3 or all of them.

Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 2nd September 22:43

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
From what we already know, it must have been pretty obvious that they were lookin to take the child to praug.

I am sure they have mobile phones, and i am sure pc plod are capable of making a phone call.

Seriously, they went for an EU arrest warrant as their first action?

Then they raid the grandmothers house...

Which part of heavy handed and out of control is that?

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
The rules said they could so they did.

It wasn't Proportionate and it wasn't Necessary.

Vaud

50,291 posts

154 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
From what we already know, it must have been pretty obvious that they were lookin to take the child to praug.

I am sure they have mobile phones, and i am sure pc plod are capable of making a phone call.

Seriously, they went for an EU arrest warrant as their first action?

Then they raid the grandmothers house...

Which part of heavy handed and out of control is that?
The grandmother who then went to the press to say that the only reason they had gone to Spain was to sell an apartment to pay for treatment <insert tears> - last time I checked it did not take full family to travel to complete a flat sale in Europe.

All a media circus and possibly brilliantly planned by the family. #cynicalview

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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Martin4x4 said:
Breadvan72 said:
Martin4x4 said:
Breadvan72 said:
Never mind the parents' feelings and opinions, what about their liberty?
What about their responsibility? There I was thinking the child's welfare is paramount.
Still insisting that the State was right, despite the climb down? Where is your evidence that the parents neglected the child?
Nice dodge for a strawman. All it proves is they caved in to political pressure.
Plumb out of arguments, eh? Never mind, just keep spluttering and insisting that the child was in danger despite the complete absence of evidence of this. After all, doctors and police officers can never be wrong. Did it make you feel all excited when you saw the parents being handcuffed?

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
Plumb out of arguments, eh? Never mind, just keep spluttering and insisting that the child was in danger despite the complete absence of evidence of this. After all, doctors and police officers can never be wrong. Did it make you feel all excited when you saw the parents being handcuffed?
Have you seen the EuroNCAP ratings for the Hyundai i80? wink

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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Vaud said:
I think the police reacted in the right way initially based on the actions of the family but followed it up badly by being too slow to evolving circumstances.
I think that's a fair summary.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
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IanA2 said:
From the incomplete knowledge I have from reading about this disgraceful episode, I think BV's take on the situation pretty much chimes with mine.

What I would like to know is what, in any, input the local social services have had. I note that the Wardship application was apparently made by the hospital.

To me the whole matter has the smack of authoritarian NHS management, and I wonder to what extent it has been the NHS managers pushing the agenda rather than the Medics.

No doubt in the fulness of time, all will become clear.
It seems that both Lay and Nursing Management took a back seat in allowing the situation to get to the point it did.

without knowing what was exactly said it ios hard to tell - but if the impression given in Mr King's youtube video of thew whole thing becoming a huge flounce after the suggest of legal steps being considered if proper referral , accdeptance and transfer of care was not being put in place - it is unsuprising that Lay management would have gone towards legal actions

From a Nursing point of view there are two factors here

1. the overall role of the Nurse as Patient advocate

2. the immediate actions surrouding the point in time at which the family took Ashya from the ward and what was said and done ...


hidetheelephants

23,780 posts

192 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
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Would it be reasonable to describe the starting point of this clusterfk as a catastrophic failure of bedside manner? Why are doctors so bad at communicating with patients?

ED209

5,740 posts

243 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
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carinaman said:
The rules said they could so they did.

It wasn't Proportionate and it wasn't Necessary.
What would your feeling be if the police did nothing and then the child had died whilst removed from the hospital?

Damned if you do, Damned if you don't!

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
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Why assume that options are binary? Kick the doors down or do nothing? How about some fact sensitive and proportionate decisions?