Discussion
The police will act on info from the hospital. With the other party not being there they can't discuss the matter with them. If an seriously ill child has been removed without the hospitals knowledge they will report it to the police so the police have acted on the information given by the hospital.
European arrest warrants aren't just dished out either, there would have needed to have been information given on the application of the warrant justifying why it's required.
With only the press to go on its a tricky one without knowing ALL the facts.
European arrest warrants aren't just dished out either, there would have needed to have been information given on the application of the warrant justifying why it's required.
With only the press to go on its a tricky one without knowing ALL the facts.
Edited by Greendubber on Monday 1st September 15:39
Greendubber said:
The police will act on info from the hospital. With the other party not being there they can't discuss the matter with them. If an seriously ill child has been removed without the hospitals knowledge they will report it to the police so the police have acted on the information given by the hospital.
European arrest warrants aren't just dished out either, there would have needed to have been information given on the application of the warrant justifying why it's required.
so, they never though to try and give the parents a call then?European arrest warrants aren't just dished out either, there would have needed to have been information given on the application of the warrant justifying why it's required.
(mobile phones with international roaming are a wonderful thing!)
and as for EU warrants, clearly can't be that hard to get one even when NO CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED.
I dislike the police but I do not blame them for taking action even up to obtaining the dodgy EAW.
But now that the parents have been interviewed and we have 'evidence' that no child neglect was taking place thus no crime committed, why are the police still seeking extradition?
This is my major problem with the police. Making a mistake is normall but they find it extremely difficult to back down even when it is so obvious things have gone wrong.
I have now gone and read about the EAW and it seems like the police cant back down because doing so means they lose face plus the possibility of being sued for 'illegally' obtaining the EAW.
I have said it many times that things like warrants are more than likely a rubber stamping exercise these days and it looks like I wasnt wrong.
But now that the parents have been interviewed and we have 'evidence' that no child neglect was taking place thus no crime committed, why are the police still seeking extradition?
This is my major problem with the police. Making a mistake is normall but they find it extremely difficult to back down even when it is so obvious things have gone wrong.
I have now gone and read about the EAW and it seems like the police cant back down because doing so means they lose face plus the possibility of being sued for 'illegally' obtaining the EAW.
I have said it many times that things like warrants are more than likely a rubber stamping exercise these days and it looks like I wasnt wrong.
Breadvan72 said:
Update: ITV report that the boy is now a Ward of Court. I suspect that this is a precautionary measure, and it is unlikely that the Court has yet heard full argument.
Not sure if this is your area or not. But how hard will it be for them to bring the kid back to the UK now? Are they going to remove him from his treatment in the hospital? photosnob said:
Not sure if this is your area or not. But how hard will it be for them to bring the kid back to the UK now? Are they going to remove him from his treatment in the hospital?
Ashya isnt on any treatment at the moment. He has had his surgery and was just recuperating in hospital. He was on calpol and feeding lines which the parents have adequate supply of.His next course of treatment is the radiotheraphy which his parents do not want. They want a more localised and targeted type of radiotheraphy which is proton beam.
Eclassy said:
I dislike the police but I do not blame them for taking action even up to obtaining the dodgy EAW.
But now that the parents have been interviewed and we have 'evidence' that no child neglect was taking place thus no crime committed, why are the police still seeking extradition?
This is my major problem with the police. Making a mistake is normall but they find it extremely difficult to back down even when it is so obvious things have gone wrong.
I have now gone and read about the EAW and it seems like the police cant back down because doing so means they lose face plus the possibility of being sued for 'illegally' obtaining the EAW.
I have said it many times that things like warrants are more than likely a rubber stamping exercise these days and it looks like I wasnt wrong.
We have no evidence that the reasons the hospital contacted the police are now negated. Neglect is a complex word in law. But now that the parents have been interviewed and we have 'evidence' that no child neglect was taking place thus no crime committed, why are the police still seeking extradition?
This is my major problem with the police. Making a mistake is normall but they find it extremely difficult to back down even when it is so obvious things have gone wrong.
I have now gone and read about the EAW and it seems like the police cant back down because doing so means they lose face plus the possibility of being sued for 'illegally' obtaining the EAW.
I have said it many times that things like warrants are more than likely a rubber stamping exercise these days and it looks like I wasnt wrong.
I'm not sure there was any doubt that the parents acted on what they felt was the child's best interest. However, that is not relevant to the police action. They are acting on medical opinion of doctors treating the child. It would seem that the conflict between the clinical diagnosis and what the parents chose to believe was known all along.
Once it was obvious the lad was receiving excellent medical treatment it should have been the end of police involvement.
The child is safe, the police's duty of care was fulfilled so any further action is clearly illegal.
And remember, "Just following orders" didn't work as an excuse for the nazis so why hide behind it.
The child is safe, the police's duty of care was fulfilled so any further action is clearly illegal.
And remember, "Just following orders" didn't work as an excuse for the nazis so why hide behind it.
Eclassy said:
Ashya isnt on any treatment at the moment. He has had his surgery and was just recuperating in hospital. He was on calpol and feeding lines which the parents have adequate supply of.
His next course of treatment is the radiotheraphy which his parents do not want. They want a more localised and targeted type of radiotheraphy which is proton beam.
Thanks. What I was trying to ask not very well, was if they would stop him getting that treatment and drag the kid back to Southampton Hospital for the radiotherapy at this point. His next course of treatment is the radiotheraphy which his parents do not want. They want a more localised and targeted type of radiotheraphy which is proton beam.
If they don't it implies that the treatment their is better and justifies the parents actions. My only concern would them now choosing to do that to save face. I can't imagine the consultants wanting to admit they were wrong all along.
I wonder did the Police ever ask the hospital whether a protection order was in place or was in the process of being in placed before they acted, as they were effectively being requested to act without formal legal grounds by the hospital and never thought to ask.
Seems to me that this is a over blown medical disagreement about treatment.
make no mistake the previous generations deference to Doctors superiority no longer exists, present the same symptoms to half a dozen doctors and you'll probably get three different diagnosis and treatment. Me thinks the police have been put in an impossible position by the hospital, once they accepted the first cry for assistance from them without at least challenging it. I also think that once they realised the child was not in danger but seeking an alternative path to treatment they should have backed off. I am simple staggered that they have continued to pursue an extradition. In the immediate all it serves is face saving for the Police and the original hospital, not the child. I hope it is thrown out by the Spanish judges if only to highlight that point.
Seems to me that this is a over blown medical disagreement about treatment.
make no mistake the previous generations deference to Doctors superiority no longer exists, present the same symptoms to half a dozen doctors and you'll probably get three different diagnosis and treatment. Me thinks the police have been put in an impossible position by the hospital, once they accepted the first cry for assistance from them without at least challenging it. I also think that once they realised the child was not in danger but seeking an alternative path to treatment they should have backed off. I am simple staggered that they have continued to pursue an extradition. In the immediate all it serves is face saving for the Police and the original hospital, not the child. I hope it is thrown out by the Spanish judges if only to highlight that point.
HarryW said:
... Me thinks the police have been put in an impossible position by the hospital, once they accepted the first cry for assistance from them without at least challenging it. I also think that once they realised the child was not in danger but seeking an alternative path to treatment they should have backed off. I am simple staggered that they have continued to pursue an extradition. In the immediate all it serves is face saving for the Police and the original hospital, not the child. I hope it is thrown out by the Spanish judges if only to highlight that point.
Agreed. Because...BBC News Online reports that... "On Sunday, Assistant Chief Constable Chris Shead refused to apologise for the way officers conducted their search for the family. He said medical advice was that Ashya had been in "grave danger"."
When it was clear that he wasn't in "grave danger" the EAW should have been withdrawn.
So, it seems that, the police were right to act in the first instance when presented with the evidence given to them by the hospital, but wrong in not withdrawing from the case when it became clear that the evidence was not correct.
dudleybloke said:
Once it was obvious the lad was receiving excellent medical treatment it should have been the end of police involvement.
The child is safe, the police's duty of care was fulfilled so any further action is clearly illegal.
And remember, "Just following orders" didn't work as an excuse for the nazis so why hide behind it.
OK we don't have all the facts but this would make sense to me. Ive have no malice towards the police and have a healthy respect for them and what they do. they acted on the information given and found the family. but I don't see where this is going now, or how its now in the public interest? The child is safe, the police's duty of care was fulfilled so any further action is clearly illegal.
And remember, "Just following orders" didn't work as an excuse for the nazis so why hide behind it.
Scuffers said:
so, they never though to try and give the parents a call then?
(mobile phones with international roaming are a wonderful thing!)
and as for EU warrants, clearly can't be that hard to get one even when NO CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED.
Like you and everyone else on here I have no idea of the ins and outs of the actual case or what was disclosed to the police by the hospital so it's all speculation. I'm pretty sure though that contact would have been attempted with the parents by phone call, house visits etc. (mobile phones with international roaming are a wonderful thing!)
and as for EU warrants, clearly can't be that hard to get one even when NO CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED.
Have you ever applied for a European arrest warrant because you seem to know a lot about them.
dudleybloke said:
Once it was obvious the lad was receiving excellent medical treatment it should have been the end of police involvement.
The child is safe, the police's duty of care was fulfilled so any further action is clearly illegal.
And remember, "Just following orders" didn't work as an excuse for the nazis so why hide behind it.
I'm not sure that the police are the ones who can judge whether the child was receiving 'excellent' medical treatment. I know I'm not. The child is safe, the police's duty of care was fulfilled so any further action is clearly illegal.
And remember, "Just following orders" didn't work as an excuse for the nazis so why hide behind it.
On top of that, you have no idea whether the child was receiving excellent medical treatment.
On top of them, there has been a suggestion that the child has been removed from the hospital to stop if getting what the doctors believe is excellent medical treatment. So how the child is now is irrelevant. If the parents said that they would not allow the child to receive what the doctors believe is excellent medical treatment in future, then it is quite patently not the end of police involvement.
And there's more: You say that the police should not just follow orders. However, that is what they should do if they get a court order to do something. Judges are available to discuss any order should the officer in the case or at the scene feel that they have information that might be relevant but if the judge then says that they want the order carried out then it is the duty, the obligation, of the officer to do so. This does not apply to an action which of itself is unlawful and one which the judge cannot provide absolution.
Greendubber said:
Have you ever applied for a European arrest warrant because you seem to know a lot about them.
He probably hasnt but now that we have the interwebs (which the nazi doctors to Ashya's dad not to look at lest he be blinded), it is much easier for us plebs to do our ownbresearch instead of being force fed information by state sponsored media or agents.Anyone with interest in this case, a web browser and an internet connection can easily find out the circumstances when an EAW can/should be obtained.
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