Are these 'fake' yellow lines?

Are these 'fake' yellow lines?

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Discussion

Nurburgsingh

Original Poster:

5,104 posts

237 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
After some help if anyone can...

The pictures show some "no loading' markings within Ealing Councils parking zone, there is NO accompanying sign on any posts to define the loading period nor any that state "No loading at any time"

The Highway code says

"Yellow marks on the kerb or at the edge of the carriageway indicate that loading or unloading is
prohibited at the times shown on the nearby black and white plates. You may stop while passengers
board or alight. If no days are indicated on the signs the restrictions are in force every day including
Sundays and Bank Holidays.
ALWAYS CHECK THE TIMES SHOWN ON THE PLATES"


I've been issued a ticket for "Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/
unloading restrictions are in force."

Now looking at the 'markings' they don't look right to me, in fact they look like the work of a small child and a can of yellow spray paint.

So my questions are:

1. Do yellow kerb markings HAVE to be accompanied by a black and white sign on a nearby post?
2. Is there a standard for road markings? Paint/size/application etc?
3. Do these kerb markings look fake to you?






Thanks

Nurburgsingh

Original Poster:

5,104 posts

237 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
Aha... hadn't thought of that... If they're an instruction to the paint crew then they aren't "no loading" lines then?

They are sort of in line with the extension of the Double Yellows on the road and the removal of the parking bay which you can sort of see in the 'side' view image.


GTIAlex

1,935 posts

165 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
If they aren't fake then they've done a right half arsed job.

55palfers

5,892 posts

163 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
I don't think the yellow lines are wide enough.

agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
1. I don't generally do parking cases so I'd have to research that.
2. Yes. See TSRGD (www.tsrgd.co.uk) for the law and the Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 3) for guidance.
3. Looks a bit odd. I see in your first photo that an old bay has been removed.

Are double transverse lines required at the end of a loading bay?

ging84

8,828 posts

145 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
they are double yellow lines which means no parking at any time, with double yellow markings on the kerb, which means no loading at any time, does not not be restrictions times for either of these as they are at all times.
Trying to argue they are not valid because they don't conform with the regulations on signs and marking is going to be a touch fight, it's pretty clear from the photo what the markings are even if they are poorly done

agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
ging84 said:
they are double yellow lines which means no parking at any time, with double yellow markings on the kerb, which means no loading at any time, does not not be restrictions times for either of these as they are at all times.
Trying to argue they are not valid because they don't conform with the regulations on signs and marking is going to be a touch fight, it's pretty clear from the photo what the markings are even if they are poorly done
The counter argument is that there is a body of law informing everyone about road signs and markings. Legislation prescribes the colour, size and format of the same. For example, legislation requires that some markings are only valid in conjunction with a sign. The reason for that is to make the prohibition conspicuously visible. If the signage is unlawful then enforcement is unlawful. The authority may argue that the de minimis rule applies but each case will depend on its own facts.

CrutyRammers

13,735 posts

197 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
55palfers said:
I don't think the yellow lines are wide enough.
I believe that there are two sizes; narrow ones such as the above can be used in certain cases - they do it on some country lanes in the Dales for example.

ging84

8,828 posts

145 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
i think maybe i was wrong, too a look in my highway code book, for parking it says double yellow lines do not need signs, but it doesn't say the same about no loading markings, so possibly they do need a sign for the no loading part, but that does make the double yellow marks entirely pointless if they still need a sign saying no loading at all times

Silver Smudger

3,292 posts

166 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
So was the OP allowed to be parked, or just loading? And which was he actually doing when ticketed?

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
Isn't the definitive answer here that the OP is going to have to do a bit of work and look up the specific TRO and any amendments for that road.

Post the address and someone here may be able to find it online.

Nurburgsingh

Original Poster:

5,104 posts

237 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
I was Parked. Correctly displaying a valid Blue Badge.

Ealing Councils guidance is "a blue badge enables the holder to: park for up to three hours on single or double yellow lines (except where there is a ban on loading or unloading or other restrictions)."


Silver Smudger

3,292 posts

166 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
So if they actually are real 'No Loading' marks on the kerb, does that trump the disabled permit entitlement that would be allowed on double yellows with no kerb markings??

Slidingpillar

761 posts

135 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
I'm about as far removed from a lawyer as one can get. But the no-loading sign on the pavement is either one or two thick lines, and nothing else:
See here for a leaflet with pretty pictures:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...

A double kerb mark means no
loading at any time and is always
supplemented by a "no loading at
any time" plate. Where the "at any
time" restriction applies for only
part of the year (e.g. during the
summer months at a holiday
resort) and is for at least four
consecutive months, double kerb
marks are used with plates giving
the dates that the restrictions
apply.

So the 'legs' on the sign do make it not in accordance with the regulations, but I think they'll say 'de minimus' and carry on doing one. However, twin stripes on the curb are apparently always backed up by a sign - probably yards away. So if that's not there, two 'reasons' for lack of legality.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
Look my point is that these marks may not be real no loading marks. The only way is to find out the Traffic Regulation order for the road and see if no loading regs are in force or not.

I'd guess not but we aren't going to solve that on here. OP is going to have to get out and do some legwork.

Out.

Nurburgsingh

Original Poster:

5,104 posts

237 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
Thanks for the replies... I'm currently chasing around Ealing council to find someone that knows what the TRO's are in that area.

Calling them was useless... there appears to be no way to actually talk to anyone, its a maze of IVR regardless of whether you go straight to traffic or vai the main switchboard. So I resorted to email and I BCC'd all of the emails listed on the parking section of the website and Transport_services address is bounced because its not valid!

It's like customer service... but not as we know it!

I'll keep you posted when I hear back.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
1. Do yellow kerb markings HAVE to be accompanied by a black and white sign on a nearby post?

If they are loading markings, then yes.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 Section 20.2:
"Adequate vertical signing is essential, so
that drivers can readily establish the precise
restrictions in force. Inadequately signed restrictions
are likely to be legally unenforceable."

2. Is there a standard for road markings? Paint/size/application etc?

Yes. See Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 5, Section 20

3. Do these kerb markings look fake to you?

The kerb markings in your photo are 100% an instruction to the lining gang. I spray them all the time. Give it a fortnight and they will have worn/washed away.

jensenhealey2

162 posts

158 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
OP - your best bet is to get over to pepipoo.com and raise this on the parking board. There are some very knowledgeable people on that board who will be able to help you. You need to provide them with all the information, preferably in your first post, not in dribs and drabs. I suggest you look at a few threads before posting so you get the idea. You will need to provide photos of the signage related to the site of the alleged contravention.

Good luck.

Nurburgsingh

Original Poster:

5,104 posts

237 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
OpulentBob said:
1. Do yellow kerb markings HAVE to be accompanied by a black and white sign on a nearby post?

If they are loading markings, then yes.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 Section 20.2:
"Adequate vertical signing is essential, so
that drivers can readily establish the precise
restrictions in force. Inadequately signed restrictions
are likely to be legally unenforceable."

2. Is there a standard for road markings? Paint/size/application etc?

Yes. See Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 5, Section 20

3. Do these kerb markings look fake to you?

The kerb markings in your photo are 100% an instruction to the lining gang. I spray them all the time. Give it a fortnight and they will have worn/washed away.
Perfect thank you...

Appeal is in the post!

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
quotequote all
Nurburgsingh said:
Perfect thank you...

Appeal is in the post!
If they have ticketed you for breaking the (mistakely identified) loading restrictions (kerb markings) then email the County highways network manager, ask for the contact details of the engineer who dealt with the road markings for the DYLs on the road in question, and get something in writing from them to the effect that the paint marks are temporary, laid by them, and the parking officer was mistaken in issuing the ticket. That way you've got it straight from the horses mouth about who laid the markings, and when, and why, and how they are in no way intended to be a loading restriction!

What road is it out of interest? I'll have a google view and see if anything jumps out at me.