Store security - what powers, if any?

[Red 4]

pork911 said:

But, hey, what would I know?

Not much. Clearly.

[TNTom]

Red 4 said:

That all depends on what your intention is - the offence of theft is complete when you dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with intent to permanently deprive

i.e. you don't need to leave the store - it all depends what your intention is - but you have committed the crime

Try not to confuse "SIA techniques/ policy/ whatever" with law.

Ok i can mind read and know when someone is coming along to dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with intent to permanently deprive. Please explain how you know someone is doing this without seeing what i've already explained. Prime example for earlier in the week. Caught a guy on CCTV cutting a security tag off a £100 drill stashed the drill down a quiet isle, put the empty box back where it came from went to leave the store, refused to have a quick chat in the security office, so too cut along story short after he tried to leg it away from me, myself and a colleague had him on the floor until police arrived. Police turned up and viewed the footage and the evidence, I.E empty drill box and cut tag. They did the whole sum of nothing. Not enough evidence, the male hasn't left the store etc. Not the first time i've had that reply from a couple of officers!

[pork911]

Red 4 said:

pork911 said:

But, hey, what would I know?

Not much. Clearly.

How many wins and losses on theft charges for you?

[Red 4]

TNTom said:

Ok i can mind read and know when someone is coming along to dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with intent to permanently deprive. Please explain how you know someone is doing this without seeing what i've already explained. Prime example for earlier in the week. Caught a guy on CCTV cutting a security tag off a £100 drill stashed the drill down a quiet isle, put the empty box back where it came from went to leave the store, refused to have a quick chat in the security office, so too cut along story short after he tried to leg it away from me, myself and a colleague had him on the floor until police arrived. Police turned up and viewed the footage and the evidence, I.E empty drill box and cut tag. They did the whole sum of nothing. Not enough evidence, the male hasn't left the store etc. Not the first time i've had that reply from a couple of officers!

The offence is complete when the person dishonestly appropriates the property with intent to permanently deprive.

It is about intent - mens rea.

I'd suggest you have been given questionable advice from the officers who attended but then again I haven't seen the cctv or spoken to you in person.

Even if you recovered the drill it's still attempt theft if what you say is correct (an act which is more than merely preparatory to the commission of the offence).

[Red 4]

pork911 said:

How many wins and losses on theft charges for you?

I've never been arrested for theft

[TNTom]

Red 4 said:

The offence is complete when the person dishonestly appropriates the property with intent to permanently deprive.

It is about intent - mens rea.

I'd suggest you have been given questionable advice from the officers who attended but then again I haven't seen the cctv or spoken to you in person.

Even if you recovered the drill it's still attempt theft if what you say is correct (an act which is more than merely preparatory to the commission of the offence).

Ok an attempt of theft it might be, but that's an ideal world which unfortunately we don't live in. I'm not sure how much security experience you have but if you were to throw everything they train you out the window and go by that exact sentence, you wouldn't last long i know that much.

[pork911]

Red 4 said:

pork911 said:

How many wins and losses on theft charges for you?

I've never been arrested for theft

So your experience of 'THE LAW' is what?

[defblade]

Whatever the Law says, the police (possibly from long experience with what the CPS will and will not proceed with?) simply will not deal with a shoplifter as a shoplifter, unless they've left the shop first. All the crims seem to know that otherwise all they have to do is say "I just put it down my trousers to hold it while I was shopping, I was going to pay for it" and NFA.

I'm 6' 4" and powerfully built (and a goatee these days! No directorships any more tho ); my old shop had an alley down the side and decent CCTV, so I could be outside the front door without the little toerags knowing I'd seen them. They all returned to the shop to wait for the police

[Red 4]

TNTom said:

Ok an attempt of theft it might be, but that's an ideal world which unfortunately we don't live in. I'm not sure how much security experience you have but if you were to throw everything they train you out the window and go by that exact sentence, you wouldn't last long i know that much.

I don't have any retail security experience but I do have lots of policing experience.

So, your security "training" doesn't even teach the basics of law relating to theft.

Excellent.

[TTwiggy]

Red 4 said:

TNTom said:

Ok an attempt of theft it might be, but that's an ideal world which unfortunately we don't live in. I'm not sure how much security experience you have but if you were to throw everything they train you out the window and go by that exact sentence, you wouldn't last long i know that much.

I don't have any retail security experience but I do have lots of policing experience.

So, your security "training" doesn't even teach the basics of law relating to theft.

Excellent.

Stores have customers however. Customers who might make a big fuss if erroneously accused of theft (even if they are walking around with a leg of lamb in their rucksack). Hence stores tend to err on the side of caution.

[pork911]

Red 4 said:

TNTom said:

Ok an attempt of theft it might be, but that's an ideal world which unfortunately we don't live in. I'm not sure how much security experience you have but if you were to throw everything they train you out the window and go by that exact sentence, you wouldn't last long i know that much.

I don't have any retail security experience but I do have lots of policing experience.

So, your security "training" doesn't even teach the basics of law relating to theft.

Excellent.

And your myopic focus on these basics have what practical relevance to store security, shoplifters or even policing?


Even the shoplifter, who knows his own intentions, doesn't breathe a sigh of relief when the item is under his coat but he's still in the shop. 'The theft is complete! Woo hoo!'


The security and even police don't care for your law school 101, and certainly wouldn't rely on mere questioning to prove intent.