The Law, do you have to stop
Discussion
I was thinking the other day when an unmarked police car passed me with blue lights going two people in the car with no uniforms on.
If they pulled in front of me and wanted me to stop, would I stop............ what is the correct action?
I suppose the real question is would an unmarked car try to pull you over, or is that only left to the marked cars?
If they pulled in front of me and wanted me to stop, would I stop............ what is the correct action?
I suppose the real question is would an unmarked car try to pull you over, or is that only left to the marked cars?
The officer has to be in uniform to compel you to stop, but the uniform can be quite minimal and need not be a full kit. You couldn't usually tell if an officer is in uniform until he or she gets out of the car. Blue lights are not by themselves a signal to stop, and may be more likely to mean please make way.
If an unmarked car with blokes in civvies tried to pull me over the fist thing I'd do is ring 999 and report that an unmarked car with blokes in civvies was trying to force me to stop. If they confirmed it was one of theirs I'd inform them that I would be driving to the first available public place with people and CCTV (eg petrol station) where I would then pull over and talk to them.
I would NOT be stopping in the middle of nowhere for them and nor would my wife.
I would NOT be stopping in the middle of nowhere for them and nor would my wife.
Pablo68 said:
If an unmarked car with blokes in civvies tried to pull me over the fist thing I'd do is ring 999 and report that an unmarked car with blokes in civvies was trying to force me to stop. If they confirmed it was one of theirs I'd inform them that I would be driving to the first available public place with people and CCTV (eg petrol station) where I would then pull over and talk to them.
I would NOT be stopping in the middle of nowhere for them and nor would my wife.
Agreed. No way would I pull over for an unmarked vehicle these days before calling (on hands-free of course) 999 and asking them to confirm it was indeed piloted by legitimate Police officers. Once they had confirmed it was a legitimate vehicle, I probably wouldn't bother waiting for the next available public place as I wouldn't want to aggravate the Police anymore than I had already by flagging up on their system for whatever reason.I would NOT be stopping in the middle of nowhere for them and nor would my wife.
Some years ago I was pursued for some miles by an unmarked car with 4 baseball-capped occupants who tried to stop me with much headlight flashing. I ignored their attention and was waiting for a blue light. When the road dropped to a 40mph limit (from NSR) the vehicle came alongside me and I could see all 4 baseball caps had a chequered band an 'POLICE' written upon them and the front seat passenger was leaning out the window thrusting his Warrant Card at me. They had also been joined by a liveried Transit van by this point so I stopped.
Wrt the OP, I'd stop, but only in well light and observable area, say a petrol station, and keep the doors locked until I saw a Warrant Card.
You must hae been doing sometheing, ahem, unusual to be stopped by plain-clothes officers. In my case I hade driven into and straight out of a car-park that was unbeknownst to me, used for drug traficking. They thought I was a drug trafficker and wanted to search me and my car for drugs. I had gone there with my girlfriend for a bit of 'fun'; She was wearing stockings, heels and a raincoat so was a bit reluctant to be searched!
Wrt the OP, I'd stop, but only in well light and observable area, say a petrol station, and keep the doors locked until I saw a Warrant Card.
You must hae been doing sometheing, ahem, unusual to be stopped by plain-clothes officers. In my case I hade driven into and straight out of a car-park that was unbeknownst to me, used for drug traficking. They thought I was a drug trafficker and wanted to search me and my car for drugs. I had gone there with my girlfriend for a bit of 'fun'; She was wearing stockings, heels and a raincoat so was a bit reluctant to be searched!
You have to comply with the signals of a police officer for the time being engaged in the regulation of traffic and this includes stopping a vehicle. The legislation does not state anything to do with uniform.
What constitutes 'regulation of traffic' is a matter of fact to be proved. There is case law on the matter but it is not particularly clear.
Further, if you fail to conform to the indication given by any person engaged in the regulation of traffic and you have an accident then the fact that you failed to conform to the direction and drove on regardless may be used in evidence against your for a charge of careless driving.
So take care out there.
What constitutes 'regulation of traffic' is a matter of fact to be proved. There is case law on the matter but it is not particularly clear.
Further, if you fail to conform to the indication given by any person engaged in the regulation of traffic and you have an accident then the fact that you failed to conform to the direction and drove on regardless may be used in evidence against your for a charge of careless driving.
So take care out there.
Breadvan72 said:
A police officer driving a police car who wants another driver to stop is not engaged in the regulation of traffic in a road (that's section 13 RTA 1960), and so the uniform provision applies (section 163 RTA 1988).
Are you suggesting that a police officer can only be engaged in the regulation of traffic when out of a motor vehicle? 'Cause police officers regulate traffic while in cars all the time. Mostly they will do so if in uniform but sometimes needs must. I could quote instances but I feel sure you can conjure situations yourself.
Depends on the car aswell. If it's a 52 plate Corsa with just some grille lights then I would be tempted to flash my hazards to show I understood the intention and then get on the phone. Although my force has some VERY surprising unmarked cars (personally the 3 dr Polo GTI is my favourite to drive) they are all very weak blued up, generally with grille lights, headlight flash, a good 3 ten siren and led blues in places like wing mirror side repeaters and headlights/highlight housings. It's all about perception.
Breadvan72 said:
The OP appears to be talking about the scenario in which Hoonist A is piling along the road and Plod B wants to pull him over. That's a different situation to Plod C directing traffic on foot or Plod D doing so from a vehicle.
I'm not sure that the OP did suggest hooning:ratboiler said:
I was thinking the other day when an unmarked police car passed me with blue lights going two people in the car with no uniforms on.
If they pulled in front of me and wanted me to stop, would I stop............ what is the correct action?
I suppose the real question is would an unmarked car try to pull you over, or is that only left to the marked cars?
The officers might well be trying to facilitate the passage of an unmarked police vehicle, or there might well be a lost or stolen on the move and due to the nature of driving the police were trying to remove other vehicles from danger. Or it might be that there is an accident ahead and the police want to slow traffic. If they pulled in front of me and wanted me to stop, would I stop............ what is the correct action?
I suppose the real question is would an unmarked car try to pull you over, or is that only left to the marked cars?
I would suggest that all these scenarios can be interpreted as 'regulation of traffic'. There is, or at least was up until 10 years ago, precious little case law as the CPS/police seem reluctant to charge the offence. From what little case law there is seemed to suggest that regulation of traffic meant vehicles as a group. So using reg 35 was not to be used for stopping a specific vehicle so much as vehicles. Although if there was one vehicle on the road then perhaps . . .
That said, there's little to go on.
When one driver failed to follow the directions of a member of the public trying to slow a vehicle for an accident around a bend, the driver was reported for careless driving and found guilty when he slid off the road when braking after coming across the accident, and nearly making it worse. That was in the days of reckless and there might well be a case of dangerous.
I would also suggest that it is not up to the driver of the civilian car to make the assumption as to why a police officer not in uniform, in or out of a vehicle, wants then to stop, or perhaps follow a course of action.
If someone, anyone, is engaged in the regulation of traffic then you have to have a strong reason for failing to comply as one would assume they have a strong reason.
In the case above, of the police trying to remove vehicles from danger, then if a driver ignored the signals of the occupant of a vehicle displaying blues and sounding twos and an accident resulted, especially if an occupant of the car was seriously injured or killed, then I'd suggest that a file might well get nodded through the CPS.
I'd have given it a push.
Making calls and then driving to where you want to stop sounds like a great way to provoke being taken to a police station for a drugs search. If you really want to wind them up why not wind down the windows and start throwing stuff out of the window at the same time.
Sorry but are people really so thick that they can't work out what a police car looks like. The none obvious ones are ridiculously unlikely to pull you over... They would just radio for a marked unit. Also why would criminals or impersonators want to pull you over... Unless you are famous and have bodyguards there are far easier ways to rob or hurt you.
Sorry but are people really so thick that they can't work out what a police car looks like. The none obvious ones are ridiculously unlikely to pull you over... They would just radio for a marked unit. Also why would criminals or impersonators want to pull you over... Unless you are famous and have bodyguards there are far easier ways to rob or hurt you.
photosnob said:
Sorry but are people really so thick that they can't work out what a police car looks like. The none obvious ones are ridiculously unlikely to pull you over... They would just radio for a marked unit.
Not really true though. I don't think I've ever radioed for a marked car to pull someone over for me. I do agree though that usually it is quite easy (IMO) to tell if it's marked cop car or not. I also think that it's very hard to tell if someone is in uniform or not when being pulled over. Especially with dazzling led lights and distance/rain/etc.
Mk3Spitfire said:
Not really true though. I don't think I've ever radioed for a marked car to pull someone over for me.
I do agree though that usually it is quite easy (IMO) to tell if it's marked cop car or not. I also think that it's very hard to tell if someone is in uniform or not when being pulled over. Especially with dazzling led lights and distance/rain/etc.
I have no idea about general Policing. But I can say many years ago when me and some "colleagues" were being followed by some Police who were in an unmarked transit (that looked like it was straight of a building site) it was marked cars who pulled us over. I'm not suggesting that general unmarked cars would get a marked car, but the truly unusual ones (where the police won't be wearing uniform anyway) didn't do the stopping in my case. Incidentally it was pretty obvious that it was Police anyway as builders don't look as clean as those blokes and there were a few other giveaways. I do agree though that usually it is quite easy (IMO) to tell if it's marked cop car or not. I also think that it's very hard to tell if someone is in uniform or not when being pulled over. Especially with dazzling led lights and distance/rain/etc.
However how often do uniformed officers drive around in cars which go out of their way to not look like police cars? I'm talking about sheds which are designed to blend into certain areas. I've no idea if they do, but I've certainly never experienced it. In my experience CID are usually in rented small cars like Fiesta's and they didn't have any sort of lights or sirens. Again that's only my own experience. I could be doing my usual and talking rubbish.
photosnob said:
Mk3Spitfire said:
Not really true though. I don't think I've ever radioed for a marked car to pull someone over for me.
I do agree though that usually it is quite easy (IMO) to tell if it's marked cop car or not. I also think that it's very hard to tell if someone is in uniform or not when being pulled over. Especially with dazzling led lights and distance/rain/etc.
I have no idea about general Policing. But I can say many years ago when me and some "colleagues" were being followed by some Police who were in an unmarked transit (that looked like it was straight of a building site) it was marked cars who pulled us over. I'm not suggesting that general unmarked cars would get a marked car, but the truly unusual ones (where the police won't be wearing uniform anyway) didn't do the stopping in my case. Incidentally it was pretty obvious that it was Police anyway as builders don't look as clean as those blokes and there were a few other giveaways. I do agree though that usually it is quite easy (IMO) to tell if it's marked cop car or not. I also think that it's very hard to tell if someone is in uniform or not when being pulled over. Especially with dazzling led lights and distance/rain/etc.
However how often do uniformed officers drive around in cars which go out of their way to not look like police cars? I'm talking about sheds which are designed to blend into certain areas. I've no idea if they do, but I've certainly never experienced it. In my experience CID are usually in rented small cars like Fiesta's and they didn't have any sort of lights or sirens. Again that's only my own experience. I could be doing my usual and talking rubbish.
We have a couple of transit vans, but they are generally for the handy man and aren't usually drive by cops. I certainly wouldn't try pulling someone over in it anyway! We have a couple of Focus et al which response can use, and they have lights and sirens. Great for sneaking around, but generally marked are better for obvious reasons.
Mk3Spitfire said:
CID (when they actually leave the nick) usually drive round in Focus or similar. One or two of ours have lights but no sirens. Not really sure why they need lights at all. Some departments such as the counter terrorist units and drug teams have cars that not even I would identify as being a cop car and they have sirens and lights. Some are cheeky little sleepers too.
We have a couple of transit vans, but they are generally for the handy man and aren't usually drive by cops. I certainly wouldn't try pulling someone over in it anyway! We have a couple of Focus et al which response can use, and they have lights and sirens. Great for sneaking around, but generally marked are better for obvious reasons.
When in CID I planned a little op to nick a persistent burglar (climber) and GBH chappie, nasty bit of work. There was rear access to his house via a narrow footpath, accessed via an 'entry' in the row of terraced houses.We have a couple of transit vans, but they are generally for the handy man and aren't usually drive by cops. I certainly wouldn't try pulling someone over in it anyway! We have a couple of Focus et al which response can use, and they have lights and sirens. Great for sneaking around, but generally marked are better for obvious reasons.
I drove past the house in the brand new CID Cortina 2-litre, turned the car around, dropped two heavies at the entry. They ran round. I skidded to a stop outside the front of the house, making a bit of a fuss as we didn't want to break down the front door. I got out of the car and kicked the hidden - from everyone - two tone switch in the footwell. The other two thought this a call for assistance and ran (yes, ran) back through the entrance to see me, head in the footwell, trying to find the off switch. The bloke escaped out the rear of the premises.
Not one of my finest moments.
Four up in a Cortina - we looked more like police officers than if we were wearing full dress uniforms with helmets.
Derek Smith said:
Mk3Spitfire said:
CID (when they actually leave the nick) usually drive round in Focus or similar. One or two of ours have lights but no sirens. Not really sure why they need lights at all. Some departments such as the counter terrorist units and drug teams have cars that not even I would identify as being a cop car and they have sirens and lights. Some are cheeky little sleepers too.
We have a couple of transit vans, but they are generally for the handy man and aren't usually drive by cops. I certainly wouldn't try pulling someone over in it anyway! We have a couple of Focus et al which response can use, and they have lights and sirens. Great for sneaking around, but generally marked are better for obvious reasons.
When in CID I planned a little op to nick a persistent burglar (climber) and GBH chappie, nasty bit of work. There was rear access to his house via a narrow footpath, accessed via an 'entry' in the row of terraced houses.We have a couple of transit vans, but they are generally for the handy man and aren't usually drive by cops. I certainly wouldn't try pulling someone over in it anyway! We have a couple of Focus et al which response can use, and they have lights and sirens. Great for sneaking around, but generally marked are better for obvious reasons.
I drove past the house in the brand new CID Cortina 2-litre, turned the car around, dropped two heavies at the entry. They ran round. I skidded to a stop outside the front of the house, making a bit of a fuss as we didn't want to break down the front door. I got out of the car and kicked the hidden - from everyone - two tone switch in the footwell. The other two thought this a call for assistance and ran (yes, ran) back through the entrance to see me, head in the footwell, trying to find the off switch. The bloke escaped out the rear of the premises.
Not one of my finest moments.
Four up in a Cortina - we looked more like police officers than if we were wearing full dress uniforms with helmets.
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