M25, Variable Limits

[RB Will]

Any idea what the trigger limit is on the ones not displaying a speed?
Coming back from Gatwick (towards the M4) I was doing about 83 the car in front doing the same.
We went under a gantry that looked like it was switched off, not displaying any reduced limits or the NSL sign. The camera went off for the car in front of me, so I jumped on the brakes for a sec (nowt behind me) and didnt see it go off at me. ( 1 more week to go before I can relax I guess)
Have never seen one go off before when its been showing no speed limits and I and many friends may have been through them at slightly above 80 before with no flashy.

[robinessex]

emmaT2014 said:

robinessex said:

Reports in our local paper suggest that the M25 section from about J27 to the Dartford Crossing is now 'live' with respect to speed cameras functioning when the motorway managed system is ON, i.e. lower than 70mph is being displayed on the gantries. As well, speed enforcement approaching the crossing (BOTH SIDES), and on the crossing itself is now also live ALL THE TIME.

Well if the rest of the report is as accurate as the part I have highlighted it is all complete cock and without any reliable evidence whatsoever.

http://www.brentwoodgazette.co.uk/Variable-speed-limits-enforced-cameras-M25/story-22337163-detail/story.html

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-new...

To save me the bother of any more evidence, I suggset you google:-

dartford crossing speed cameras

Edited by robinessex on Wednesday 1st October 14:17

[Lawbags]

Only today I drove along the M25 and saw lanes one and four with a red circled 40mph sign showing and nothing at all on lanes 2 and 3 signs.
What then? Can you speed in 2 and 3?

Does anyone know anyone who has been prosecuted when the limit is reduced? How does the control room actually know the sign is illuminated?

Surely it could go like this in court-
Speeder "there was no 40mph sign illuminated"
Prosecution "yes there was"
Speeder "prove it"

Kinda hard to prove really.

[robinessex]

Lawbags said:

Only today I drove along the M25 and saw lanes one and four with a red circled 40mph sign showing and nothing at all on lanes 2 and 3 signs.
What then? Can you speed in 2 and 3?

Does anyone know anyone who has been prosecuted when the limit is reduced? How does the control room actually know the sign is illuminated?

Surely it could go like this in court-
Speeder "there was no 40mph sign illuminated"
Prosecution "yes there was"
Speeder "prove it"

Kinda hard to prove really.

Road Cam ?

[Lawbags]

robinessex said:

Lawbags said:

Only today I drove along the M25 and saw lanes one and four with a red circled 40mph sign showing and nothing at all on lanes 2 and 3 signs.
What then? Can you speed in 2 and 3?

Does anyone know anyone who has been prosecuted when the limit is reduced? How does the control room actually know the sign is illuminated?

Surely it could go like this in court-
Speeder "there was no 40mph sign illuminated"
Prosecution "yes there was"
Speeder "prove it"

Kinda hard to prove really.

Road Cam ?

There can't be a camera pointing at each gantry surely?

[robinessex]

Lawbags said:

robinessex said:

Lawbags said:

Only today I drove along the M25 and saw lanes one and four with a red circled 40mph sign showing and nothing at all on lanes 2 and 3 signs.
What then? Can you speed in 2 and 3?

Does anyone know anyone who has been prosecuted when the limit is reduced? How does the control room actually know the sign is illuminated?

Surely it could go like this in court-
Speeder "there was no 40mph sign illuminated"
Prosecution "yes there was"
Speeder "prove it"

Kinda hard to prove really.

Road Cam ?

There can't be a camera pointing at each gantry surely?

In your OWN car

[s p a c e m a n]

robinessex said:

Lawbags said:

robinessex said:

Lawbags said:

Only today I drove along the M25 and saw lanes one and four with a red circled 40mph sign showing and nothing at all on lanes 2 and 3 signs.
What then? Can you speed in 2 and 3?

Does anyone know anyone who has been prosecuted when the limit is reduced? How does the control room actually know the sign is illuminated?

Surely it could go like this in court-
Speeder "there was no 40mph sign illuminated"
Prosecution "yes there was"
Speeder "prove it"

Kinda hard to prove really.

Road Cam ?

There can't be a camera pointing at each gantry surely?

In your OWN car

So how does the law stand on that?

4 lanes, all main carriageway and none going to a junction, 2 lanes say 40mph and the other 2 are blank. Can you drive along the 2 blank lanes at 70mph and expect a judge to agree with you?

[Nigel Worc's]

s p a c e m a n said:

So how does the law stand on that?

4 lanes, all main carriageway and none going to a junction, 2 lanes say 40mph and the other 2 are blank. Can you drive along the 2 blank lanes at 70mph and expect a judge to agree with you?

You'd initially think not, but if the arses in the west mids can have a different speed for each lane, which they do, then I have to agree with the poster that if it doesn't say anything, it's NSL.

[vescaegg]

I've only recently started a commute involving the m25. It's only 2 junctions (8 to 10) and there can't be less than 50 of these fking gantries in the stretch I do.

I've always slowed down to the speeds posted and try not to go through the 'off' ones at anything over 75ish, but everyone else just seems to fly through no matter what!

Anyone know how this stretch functions? It could probably save me ten mins either way by ignoring them like everyone else does!

Until I know though, I'll continue to slow down otherwise I could get 12 points in the space of a mile

[Landshark]

Lawbags said:

Only today I drove along the M25 and saw lanes one and four with a red circled 40mph sign showing and nothing at all on lanes 2 and 3 signs.
What then? Can you speed in 2 and 3?

Does anyone know anyone who has been prosecuted when the limit is reduced? How does the control room actually know the sign is illuminated?

Surely it could go like this in court-
Speeder "there was no 40mph sign illuminated"
Prosecution "yes there was"
Speeder "prove it"

Kinda hard to prove really.

The system keeps a log to show what gantry shows what at what time, who set it and when it was removed, you can even get a pictorial print to show what the gantrys where displaying at a certain time!

[Landshark]

Nigel Worc's said:

s p a c e m a n said:

So how does the law stand on that?

4 lanes, all main carriageway and none going to a junction, 2 lanes say 40mph and the other 2 are blank. Can you drive along the 2 blank lanes at 70mph and expect a judge to agree with you?

You'd initially think not, but if the arses in the west mids can have a different speed for each lane, which they do, then I have to agree with the poster that if it doesn't say anything, it's NSL.

There seems to be loads broken on the M25 at the mo, which they seem to be replacing?

For a change in speed limit (where no junction is involved) only requires two terminal signs, so I would suggest if there is two or more then it would cover the whole road.

As for the idea of having various speeds over various lanes, that's just absurd, and almost as bad as having one on a five lane section stating 20mph!!!!!!

[Nigel Worc's]

Landshark said:

There seems to be loads broken on the M25 at the mo, which they seem to be replacing?

For a change in speed limit (where no junction is involved) only requires two terminal signs, so I would suggest if there is two or more then it would cover the whole road.

As for the idea of having various speeds over various lanes, that's just absurd, and almost as bad as having one on a five lane section stating 20mph!!!!!!

Absurd or not, it is what they do, so if it is good for them, it is good for us, no number above a lane ? Then that lane must be NSL.

[Landshark]

Nigel Worc's said:

Landshark said:

There seems to be loads broken on the M25 at the mo, which they seem to be replacing?

For a change in speed limit (where no junction is involved) only requires two terminal signs, so I would suggest if there is two or more then it would cover the whole road.

As for the idea of having various speeds over various lanes, that's just absurd, and almost as bad as having one on a five lane section stating 20mph!!!!!!

Absurd or not, it is what they do, so if it is good for them, it is good for us, no number above a lane ? Then that lane must be NSL.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/2134/regulation/3/made
Variable speed limits

3. (1) No person shall drive a vehicle on a section of a road which is subject to a variable speed limit at a speed exceeding that indicated by a speed limit sign.
(2) A section of a road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven along it if—
(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c)the vehicle has not subsequently passed—
(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.
(3) In relation to a vehicle, the speed limit indicated by a speed limit sign is the speed shown at the time the vehicle passes the sign, or, if higher, the speed limit shown by the sign ten seconds before the vehicle passed the sign.
(4) For the purpose of this regulation, a speed limit sign is to be taken as not indicating any speed limit if, ten seconds before the vehicle passed it, the sign had indicated no speed limit or that the national speed limit was in force.
(5) In this regulation—
(a)“national speed limit” has the meaning given by regulation 5(2) of the 2002 Regulations;“road” includes the adjacent hard shoulder and verge; and
“speed limit sign”, in relation to a vehicle, means a traffic sign of the type shown in diagram 670 in Schedule 2 to the 2002 Regulations which is—
(b)situated on or near any part of a road specified in the Schedule; and
(c)directed at traffic on the carriageway on which the vehicle is being driven.

[Nigel Worc's]

So there you go, if no figure shown, it is NSL, what's the arguement ?

[Landshark]

Nigel Worc's said:

So there you go, if no figure shown, it is NSL, what's the arguement ?

Hmmm not sure where you get that bit from?

[Nigel Worc's]

Landshark said:

Hmmm not sure where you get that bit from?

Errrr......bit 3.1 ?

[Landshark]

Nigel Worc's said:

Landshark said:

Hmmm not sure where you get that bit from?

Errrr......bit 3.1 ?

How about 5 though

'a traffic sign'
'Situated on or near'
'Directed at traffic on the carriageway'

So if you had four lanes, lanes one two and four showing 50, and lane three blank, then the signs situated on or near are directed at traffic on the carriageway!?


(I'm playing devils advocate )

[Adrian E]

But there are other signs in adjacent lanes all saying what the applicable limit is - these all count and you only need 1 of them to be working for the limit to apply, until you go past 1 showing NSL

[speedking31]

Can't be right otherwise 40-40-60-60 would mean that those in the 40 lanes could do 60. Also why ever illuminate more than one sign if one is enough to indicate to the whole motorway?

[Landshark]

speedking31 said:

Can't be right otherwise 40-40-60-60 would mean that those in the 40 lanes could do 60. Also why ever illuminate more than one sign if one is enough to indicate to the whole motorway?

From reading the legislation above, the above sign combination means the carriageway should not exceed 40???

Perhaps the use of several limits on one gantry is non compliant?