M25, Variable Limits

[littleredrooster]

Nigel Worc's said:

And if it says 20 over lane one, 30 over lane two, 40 over lane three, & 50 over lane four ?

Custard test. Unless someone can provide a screen-grab, I do not believe this scenario at all; the (single) limit applies to the stretch of road, not to the lane.

[twister]

littleredrooster said:

Custard test. Unless someone can provide a screen-grab, I do not believe this scenario at all; the (single) limit applies to the stretch of road, not to the lane.

You might not believe it, but Nigel isn't alone in seeing this sort of VSL combo - I've seen it a few times late at night on the M25.

[Lawbags]

Likewise. I see it fairly often

[littleredrooster]

Lawbags said:

Likewise. I see it fairly often

Hmmm...I wonder if any of our HA Control Room bods could comment - Gafferjim?

[mygoldfishbowl]

johhnxxx said:

See Topic Link - there are two separate issues involved :

a) HA sets a different mandatory speed limit (flashing red lights and red circle) in different lanes. This is invalid and they've promised not to do it any more. It is non-compliant with TSRGD and therefore unlawful. The cameras won't be armed. (Note : It is lawful to have different Advisory limits in each lane - amber flashing lights. No cameras are armed in this case)

b) One or more displays (on a gantry) is not working properly / at all. The equipment is supposed to spot this during its test phase and won't arm any of the cameras.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=c3541512e68c...

Edited by mygoldfishbowl on Saturday 1st November 15:39

[littleredrooster]

mygoldfishbowl said:

johhnxxx said:

See Topic Link - there are two separate issues involved :

a) HA sets a different mandatory speed limit (flashing red lights and red circle) in different lanes. This is invalid and they've promised not to do it any more. It is non-compliant with TSRGD and therefore unlawful. The cameras won't be armed. (Note : It is lawful to have different Advisory limits in each lane - amber flashing lights. No cameras are armed in this case)

b) One or more displays (on a gantry) is not working properly / at all. The equipment is supposed to spot this during its test phase and won't arm any of the cameras.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=c3541512e68c...

Edited by mygoldfishbowl on Saturday 1st November 15:39

Yes - I did wonder if there was some confusion between advisory and mandatory signs. I would reiterate that I am very sceptical about these signs showing different red-circle (i.e. mandatory) limits. My understanding is that these are computer-generated and -controlled and will not (indeed, cannot) show different limits for individual lanes.

[twister]

littleredrooster said:

Yes - I did wonder if there was some confusion between advisory and mandatory signs. I would reiterate that I am very sceptical about these signs showing different red-circle (i.e. mandatory) limits. My understanding is that these are computer-generated and -controlled and will not (indeed, cannot) show different limits for individual lanes.

From the post you've just replied to - "a) HA sets a different mandatory speed limit (flashing red lights and red circle) in different lanes. This is invalid and they've promised not to do it any more."

I'll admit that it's been maybe a year or so since I last saw such a combination of mandatory limits on a single gantry, so perhaps the HA are now sticking to their promise not to do it any more - thought as I now also spend less time driving the M25 in the wee hours when such combinations tended to appear, I'd probably not have seen any for a while anyway...

However, that they've had to make this promise does rather back up our claims that mixed mandatory limits on a single gantry HAVE been displayed in the past, and also indicates that the system is quite capable of displaying such mixed limits if someone at HA HQ decides they want to play silly buggers.

Believe me, I'm not some muppet who can't tell the difference between an advisory and mandatory limit - the only reason I still remember these occasions is because I'm 100% certain the gantries were displaying different mandatory limits for different lanes, and I still remember the "WTFF" thoughts running through my mind as I tried to decide which limit I should be obeying as I passed under the gantry, knowing full well that on at least one of those occasions the gantry in question had cameras on it, but not knowing (as I now do) that the cameras wouldn't have been active in such a situation...

[Collectingbrass]

I've only seen this, as both advisory and mandatory, at slip roads where the slip has a different number on the lollipop to that for the main carrigeway.

[Nigel Worc's]

twister said:

From the post you've just replied to - "a) HA sets a different mandatory speed limit (flashing red lights and red circle) in different lanes. This is invalid and they've promised not to do it any more."

I'll admit that it's been maybe a year or so since I last saw such a combination of mandatory limits on a single gantry, so perhaps the HA are now sticking to their promise not to do it any more - thought as I now also spend less time driving the M25 in the wee hours when such combinations tended to appear, I'd probably not have seen any for a while anyway...

However, that they've had to make this promise does rather back up our claims that mixed mandatory limits on a single gantry HAVE been displayed in the past, and also indicates that the system is quite capable of displaying such mixed limits if someone at HA HQ decides they want to play silly buggers.

Believe me, I'm not some muppet who can't tell the difference between an advisory and mandatory limit - the only reason I still remember these occasions is because I'm 100% certain the gantries were displaying different mandatory limits for different lanes, and I still remember the "WTFF" thoughts running through my mind as I tried to decide which limit I should be obeying as I passed under the gantry, knowing full well that on at least one of those occasions the gantry in question had cameras on it, but not knowing (as I now do) that the cameras wouldn't have been active in such a situation...

I've seen this on the M42 & M25, although not for a while.

I could, but cannot give anyone proof anymore, as I no longer have the dashcam footage, but a West Mercia Traffic officer, who posts on here as "Elroy Blue" (now called roads policing I think), along with another respected poster who posts as "FiF", will happily back me up on what I say I've seen regarding the M42.

They weren't advisory, and were full on red border signs.

[thatsprettyshady]

Flashed at 90+ on the M25 when gantrys were off (e.g NSL limit) at 5am near junction 9, Lets see if the ticket comes...

[Pip1968]

Best of luck. I hope you keep us updated you evil man.

Pip

[Blakewater]

I've stood on a footbridge at Hartshead Services on the M62 and seen gantry cameras flashing everything pretty randomly when there were no limits showing on the gantries. A camera flash doesn't really mean a lot.

[thatsprettyshady]

thatsprettyshady said:

Flashed at 90+ on the M25 when gantrys were off (e.g NSL limit) at 5am near junction 9, Lets see if the ticket comes...

No ticket

[Geekman]

thatsprettyshady said:

No ticket

Looks like you've been lucky, as at least some of the cameras are enforcing the NSL as well now.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=b034368208d7...

[Gafferjim]

littleredrooster said:

Hmmm...I wonder if any of our HA Control Room bods could comment - Gafferjim?

I can't comment on the mandatory speeds set through *Smart* motorways, we don't have them YET! (In the process of being built!)
As for "Ordinary" setting, which are advisory only unless they have a red circle around them (apart from the RED X) in fact think of advisory settings as, the lower the speed, the more serious the problem.
It is possible to set different speeds over each lane on a gantry with individual signs for each lane, BUT procedures say that all the signs must show the same speeds on a gantry.
This can however change at exit slips, where there is a lane / complete closure on the slip-road it self. We set the lane closure for the slip-road, and the system itself will put secondary signals on prior to the closure, sometimes (depending on the road layout normally) may put a lower speed in the nearside lane/s.
There are very strict procedures for setting the signals, anyone getting it wrong, is quickly brought in for a "meeting without coffee"
A brief over view (certain things can change some settings) but mainly;.............
50's are set with "INCIDENT" when something is reported to us and it's not confirmed, we also have to go off the information supplied, and that can very often be sketchy or totally wrong. I have know wrong c/way, wrong motorway, wrong junctions be passed, and this is a fairly regular occurrence. either a HATO or Police patrol needs to search the area given and either confirm or no trace the incident before the signals can be switched off.
If we get a number of calls, all giving the same location, and it can be pinned down to a marker-post, even if not confirmed yet, we can reduce signals to a maximum of two signals showing 30's. There may be a number of lanes blocked, but until it's confirmed, we can't set lane closures etc.
(Seeing the results of the incident on CCTV, and being able to work out which lanes are affected, that is confirmation enough to set lane closures, but these can't be cleared until a patrol at scene confirms everything clear of the c/way)
The system is built so that it will only let motorists see a step down in speed of a maximum of 20mph at a time, so if speeds are set for 20's the system will set secondary speeds of 40's & 60's/50's on the approach.
We have to meet strict guidelines on the speed that signals are set & cleared. operators have their work randomly audited every week, without them knowing it's being done. Signals are NOT left on, believe me!
Message signs (VMS):....
When you set a signal, you have to pick from a list of about 10 standard messages, why that signals is being set. ie. INCIDENT/ PEDESTRIANS / ACCIDENT / ANIMALS / OBSTRUCTION etc. Then the signals will go up, you then have a number of other message templates that you can use, and change the initial message. ie. LANES#### CLOSED" /USE HARDSHOULDER / REJOIN MAIN C/WAY / ACCIDENT AFTER J## / EXIT CLOSED AT J## / and a load of others, we cannot make our own up!
Messages are restricted to the number of spaces on the message board, ie 2 rows of 12, 2 rows of 15, 3 rows of 15, so the message with spaces needs to fit. Getting new messages authorised takes FOREVER! (if at all!)
Messages are set in a number of ways;...............Manually, as I've just explained, these are done for incidents by the Regional Control Room. We set just around the incident, up to a maximum of 2 junctions prior.
Manually, buy the National Traffic Control Room (Located near Birmingham) They set "Strategic" messages, ie those miles away telling you of a closure or something on a motorway at the other side of the country. If an incident is causing major congestion & queues, they ask us how long we thing it may be on for before the lanes are reopened, they also monitor the congestion, and if it may last say 1 hour, they will set messages back up to 70 miles away, so drivers could find alternative routes.
The NTIC also set those messaged you all love, "CHECK YOUR FUEL" "DON'T HOG THE MIDDLE LANE" " IS YOUR CAR READY FOR WINTER" etc, as well as those giving information on major events that could cause congestion in the near future, ie, the Grand Prix at Silverstone.
Lastly there are the AUTOMATIC messages / signals.
In our region, FOG & HIGH WINDS are set by automatic sensors, (Although can be set manually, we don't any more)
Then there is MIDAS, (Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorway_Incident_Det... )
This is fully automatic, although can be tricked by a very slow HGV low loader when there is no actual traffic (night-time usually) any signals with a message with "QUEUE" in, has been set by MIDAS.
The other automatic settings (Which I personally don't like) are the "12 MILES TO JUNCTION ##, 9 MINS" type, these are set by a system that uses cameras similar to the ANPR cameras, they *remember groups of number plates* (well the last 3 digits) then time them between certain points, this puts the message up how long they've taken to get from A - B. I don't like them because if there's an incident, these messages don't clear for some time, so will inform drivers that the road is running OK, when actually there's a hold-up just occurred, (I try to overwrite them)

Other settings of note; If there is a blockage in lane 2, with lanes 1 & 3 still running, we cannot "Make an island" we must close from one side of the c/way to include the blocked lane, usually in this instance we'd close lanes 2 & 3.
Reports of pedestrians / animals, we set signals on both c/ways.
We DON'T set speeds for weather events that drivers can see, Heavy rain, fog (the word FOG is used).
SKID RISK is only be set for a localised problem, ie a spillage,

If you are reporting anything in, try to use a marker-post location, the small post are approx every 100 yds along the verge, the larger square ones are every ½ km, this saves us setting signals for miles, plus it confirms where it is.

Edited by Gafferjim on Sunday 9th November 17:34

[Cliftonite]

Many thanks, Gafferjim! This detailed information is very illuminating (see what I did there?!) and gives an insight into your difficulties in supplying meaningful info, at the right time, to the poor motorist.

I guess, though, despite all your team's efforts, you don't get many bouquets among the complaints / moans / whinges?

[Gafferjim]

Cliftonite said:

Many thanks, Gafferjim! This detailed information is very illuminating (see what I did there?!) and gives an insight into your difficulties in supplying meaningful info, at the right time, to the poor motorist.

I guess, though, despite all your team's efforts, you don't get many bouquets among the complaints / moans / whinges?

Hi Cliftonite, I can only speak for what I find in our region. You're correct in the respect that any letters that come in with praise are usually for our colleagues on-road, who've assisted people in their time of need.
All letters & e-mails are looked at, the complaints are investigated and acted upon if there is any substance to them,
We wish that motorists would think a little about driving on the motorway. Make sure the car is in good condition, check tyres & fluids (you won't be surprised if I tell you that 90% of breakdowns can be avoided by doing this) Join a recovery service and have the details with you in the car. (85% of driver don't have their membership details with them, a portion can't even remember which recovery service they're with!) also have your insurance "accident recovery" telephone number, as normal recovery companies will usually NOT recover you after an RTC.
Have a good warm waterproof coat in the boot for all persons in the car, sitting in your car on the H/S is not the safest thing to do! (A padded Hi/vis jacket costs about £15)
Don't travel too close to the vehicle in front, remember the 2 second rule, (double that in wet weather) even if vehicles cut in front of you, drop back and get that gap again, remember, if over your journey 30 vehicles go into your gap, you will arrive at your destination about 1 minute later than you would have done if they hadn't.
Don't hang around if you're overtaking a HGV, the worst place to be is at the side of it, the driver cannot see you in his mirrors, make sure there's enough space in the overtaking lane in front of the HGV, and get past it straight away.

From time to time, groups are allowed to visit the control room in an evening, in the NW it's near Warrington. Minimum 10 persons, max 14, no children under 16 yrs, the tour takes about 2 hrs. PM me if you're interested and can organise a group.

[Landshark]

Right, it's not the greatest photo as iPhones don't take the best, and these new signs are LED so when you try and take a photo they flash on and off, but I took a few and this shows two of the limits. What the gantry showed was;

Dedicated slip 30
Lane one 30
Lane two 50
Lane three 50



The photo shows the L1 30 and the L3 50.

Also tonight (no photo as was driving this time)

Lane one dedicated slip 40
Lane two dedicated slip Red X
Lane one 30
Lane two 40
Lane three 40

[littleredrooster]

Well, that's cleared that one up conclusively! What sort of half-arsed system allows signs to be set in breach of regulations? Or have I got the regs wrong?

[askew]

So there _is_ a fast lane!