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KungFooPanda

Original Poster:

29 posts

113 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Last week I left work at 22:30. It was still raining and it had been for most of the day. As I approached the traffic lights near my work, I reduced speed, almost coming to a stop, as the lights where red. The lights then changed to green and I drove off, looking right and then left. When I looked right again all I could see was the lights of the police cars, the nearside one coming straight at me. I attempted to brake but due to the speed of the police car I could not manoeuvre out of the way. I stopped about 10ft into the road and the BMW X5 police car collided with the front drivers quarter of my car, spinning my car through 90o and my car came to rest at the roadside. Both police vehicles had there blue lights on but no sirens. My side airbags had gone off and the front of my vehicle from the drivers door pillar to the front bumper was severely damaged. The front drivers wheel had also collapsed.

About 10 minutes later a traffic officer arrived he breathalysed me and took a statement. The officer who had crashed into the side of me, who apparently was armed response, had moved his BMW X5 prior to the traffic officer taking photographs. He was also breathalysed and gave a statement. Another traffic officer then arrived and explained to me that the normal outcome is one of joint liability. I asked the traffic officer if the armed response units carried cameras in the vehicles as I deemed his speed and that of the other police vehicle was not appropriate for the conditions, whether on a call or not.

There was also a witness who was coming up behind me who thought I was dead when the police car hit, such was the impact. Indeed so did I. He also gave his name and address to the police.

Today I rang my car insurance to see how my claim was doing and I was told that my car is a total loss and that the other party is claiming for a hire car on my insurance. I explained that the car that hit me was a Police armed response vehicle and that they’d be pushed to get one from Avis. He couldn’t understand why the police would request a hire car in the circumstances.

On the evening of the accident I thought the actions of the police where very professional with regards to the way they dealt with the aftermath but I’m afraid I find myself feeling let down and taken advantage of since I have been in contact with my insurance company.

If anyone has any experience of such things or can give me any advice then I would be grateful. I have a meeting with my legal team on Thursday to discuss the matter.

I fail to understand how someone can almost kill someone and it be joint liability given the speed and conditions involved.

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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The idea of not using sirens and lights at night is a dangerous idea and I've noticed an increasing habit of police and ambulances only using lights with limited if any use of sirens even in the daytime recently.

DervHead

1,222 posts

125 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Wow, sorry to hear about your accident. Obviously we haven't seen the junction and weren't there on the day. However isn't it the case that police responding to a call have to treat red lights as a give way, precisely because MoP will naturally be crossing through their green light perhaps without considering the fact someone could be about to jump the red on the opposite set?

I say we haven't seen the junction and conditions etc because obviously if it's wide open with miles of open road in every direction you should have seen the lights and blah blah. But in the real world and on real junctions, especially in poor conditions, you can quite easily not see a red light jumper until it's too late, which is exactly why the officer should have slowed to be able to stop in the distance he could see to be clear, and treat it as a rolling give way to ensure crashes like this don't happen. Basic Roadcraft, no?

With that in mind, how on earth can they say it's joint liability? I'd be kicking off to the highest degree and definitely speak to your legal team. Don't give in is my advice, and good luck. I hope you're OK - as the adage goes, we can replace metal it's the people who count. All the best.

GavinPearson

5,715 posts

250 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Get a lawyer who specializes in traffic accidents.

If the X5 was being at an inappropriate speed through red lights even with their blue lights on you cannot be at fault.

Look at all options including asking Police prosecution and / or disciplinary action being taken against the driver.

This may sound OTT but is needed to establish that you are not at fault and therefore should not be paying.

If you were at fault they would not hesitate to do any of the above.

white_goodman

4,042 posts

190 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Firstly, glad you're OK. I was once rear-ended at a junction by an off-duty police officer in his own vehicle and in all honesty he was the best person who could have done it because he wanted to do everything by the book. Seemed quite worried actually. He wanted to settle for cash ideally but the cost of repair on my car was more than he was willing to pay. so we agreed to do it through insurance.

In your case, no I don't think it's your fault, as it was your right of way. Had you stopped at the traffic light and then set off when it was green, you would have probably spotted him and given way to him as you should but you were already moving and if his signal was red (emergency or not), he still needs to obey the laws of the road and at least slow down and give way to vehicles that may not have seen him. Sounds like the Police are sticking together a bit on this one though but legally you're in the right. Good luck with your case.

dudleybloke

19,717 posts

185 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Don't these police vehicles have cameras fitted these days?

snobetter

1,145 posts

145 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Was quite a few years ago I did my D2 emergency response driving, but by how I was taught the police oficer is all sorts of in the wrong.

folos

900 posts

141 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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I'd imagine that regardless of the insurance company's investigation he's being investigated internally and will face consequences.

liner33

10,640 posts

201 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Similar thing happened near me with a ambulance on a call

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2496893.stm



"Ian Fitzgerald, 29, a trainee paramedic who had only recently completed an advanced driving test, failed to slow down as he approached the light, it was alleged.

He had been taught to treat a red light as the equivalent of a "give way" sign and should have given more regard to other road users"

Convicted of careless driving and banned for 3 months

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/32295...

SLCZ3

1,204 posts

204 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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snobetter said:
Was quite a few years ago I did my D2 emergency response driving, but by how I was taught the police oficer is all sorts of in the wrong.
I"m sorry can you read that again!!!

Pepperami

328 posts

115 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Not going to comment on liability as that's for the insurers to work out, but not all cars, even ARVs, have cameras fitted, although it most likely will have a comprehensive 'black box' fitted. The hire car will most likely be a demonstrator from BMW UK. If they've anything like as cash strapped as my force, our ARV fleet is right down to the bone anyway.

ikarl

3,730 posts

198 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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On Monday a Fire Engine on a call with blues/sirens going passed me on the left on a roundabout. Our light was red and he literally passed through the red light at 10-15mph.

Had he went through any faster he would have destroyed the Astra that came through 'his' green light at the speed limit (NSL roundabout) so was doing probably 45-50mph.

I commented to the wife that the driver of the fire engine must've been expecting it. Had the police officer done the same, the accident may have been much less likely to happen.

OP - Can you link the streetview from Google Maps so we can see the junction in question please?

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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KungFooPanda said:
I fail to understand how someone can almost kill someone and it be joint liability given the speed and conditions involved.
If you definitely went through a green & he definitely went through a red then it's 100% his fault. It's his job to avoid you, not vice versa.

ikarl

3,730 posts

198 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Rovinghawk said:
KungFooPanda said:
I fail to understand how someone can almost kill someone and it be joint liability given the speed and conditions involved.
If you definitely went through a green & he definitely went through a red then it's 100% his fault. It's his job to avoid you, not vice versa.
Not trying to be confrontational, just asking the question - if the road gave plenty of visibility to the drivers right, and the police driver genuinely thought that the car had seen him, would that put any of the blame onto the driver of the car?

I was taught to look right on roundabouts, even ones with traffic lights.

Motorrad

6,811 posts

186 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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KungFooPanda said:
Today I rang my car insurance to see how my claim was doing and I was told that my car is a total loss and that the other party is claiming for a hire car on my insurance. I explained that the car that hit me was a Police armed response vehicle and that they’d be pushed to get one from Avis. He couldn’t understand why the police would request a hire car in the circumstances.
The cheeky fkers trying to claim for a rental car from your insurance when they're at fault.

I'm glad you're ok, I'd get legal advice ASAP and if you have any medical problems as a result make sure to get it all documented.

The Police driver who did that to you should never get behind the wheel again.

edit fecking phone predictive text.

Edited by Motorrad on Wednesday 1st October 11:30

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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ikarl said:
Not trying to be confrontational, just asking the question - if the road gave plenty of visibility to the drivers right, and the police driver genuinely thought that the car had seen him, would that put any of the blame onto the driver of the car?
If I were to hit you whilst going quickly through a red light, how much fault would you consider was yours?

ikarl said:
I was taught to look right on roundabouts, even ones with traffic lights.
Whilst this is a good thing, it doesn't absolve others of their responsibilities.

ferrariF50lover

1,834 posts

225 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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I've never been in this situation from your side, but I've done similar from the policeman's.

Do you mind awfully if I ask why you stopped? If your scenario is as it seems by your description, you were in the path of an oncoming car and your reaction was to stop dead, ensuring that you remained in its path, rather than accelerating out of the way (or at least attempting to).
Was it a conscious decision, or did you just hit the brake by default?

I'm not taking the piss, you did what you did and that's an end to it, I'm trying to understand why those couple of odd people who have done to me similar in the past have done so. I can't ask them, so I'm asking you.

Simon.

vtecyo

2,122 posts

128 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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ikarl said:
OP - Can you link the streetview from Google Maps so we can see the junction in question please?
This. You can normally see blue lights in the dark from several hundred metres away.

Frazzly

45 posts

172 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Interesting first and only post OP...

Terzo123

4,309 posts

207 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Rovinghawk said:
If you definitely went through a green & he definitely went through a red then it's 100% his fault. It's his job to avoid you, not vice versa.
This is not correct.