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Discussion
I stated that three seconds to react may not be long enough for some and depending on the reaction, you were talking about thinking time now. Please decide which time you would like to discuss! I think we can all agree that in order to react to something you must first be able to think about what your reacting to and therefore it is a given that thinking time will always be shorter than reaction time.
TooMany2cvs said:
You're right. I wasn't there - which is why I'm only going by Panda's own words.
He pulled away from the lights when they changed to green, saw an oncoming police car, couldn't get out of the way, and stopped 10ft into the junction. Those are his words from the original post of this thread. The blue lights on that police car had been on for three seconds, 75m approaching that junction. He did not see them.
Other people have since said that some drivers cannot be expected to react within three seconds, but see no problem in drivers having reaction times over four times as long as the HC thinking distance time.
So, from that little lot, a driver sees blue lights and brings his car to a stop (not what I'd have done, but some just stop where they are). You're saying an highly trained, advanced police driver couldn't avoid a stationary car with 3 seconds to react?He pulled away from the lights when they changed to green, saw an oncoming police car, couldn't get out of the way, and stopped 10ft into the junction. Those are his words from the original post of this thread. The blue lights on that police car had been on for three seconds, 75m approaching that junction. He did not see them.
Other people have since said that some drivers cannot be expected to react within three seconds, but see no problem in drivers having reaction times over four times as long as the HC thinking distance time.
You do know it'd be easier to alter to trajectory of a moving vehicle rather than move a stopped car?
Sounds like the police driver was mostly at fault by a large margin!
Imagine the story being slightly different and the OP had carried on rather than stopping..
"So speedy plod put his lights on 3 seconds before impact and you chose to carry on!!! Why didn't you stop?"
Just what was the OP meant to do?
IMHO speedy plod was approaching traffic lights which were on red. He knew he was entering a situation of potential danger but chose to carry on, knowing if a car came through the lights on green he wouldn't be able to stop. But he carried on, and when the collision occurred, tried to blame the OP? WTF.
"So speedy plod put his lights on 3 seconds before impact and you chose to carry on!!! Why didn't you stop?"
Just what was the OP meant to do?
IMHO speedy plod was approaching traffic lights which were on red. He knew he was entering a situation of potential danger but chose to carry on, knowing if a car came through the lights on green he wouldn't be able to stop. But he carried on, and when the collision occurred, tried to blame the OP? WTF.
kazste said:
I stated that three seconds to react may not be long enough for some and depending on the reaction, you were talking about thinking time now. Please decide which time you would like to discuss!
They're the same thing.The thinking time in the HC stopping distances IS the time in which the driver is expected to process the hazard and react.
If it really takes the OP three seconds to notice the light has changed to green, and pull ten foot into the junction...
TooMany2cvs said:
kazste said:
I stated that three seconds to react may not be long enough for some and depending on the reaction, you were talking about thinking time now. Please decide which time you would like to discuss!
They're the same thing.The thinking time in the HC stopping distances IS the time in which the driver is expected to process the hazard and react.
If it really takes the OP three seconds to notice the light has changed to green, and pull ten foot into the junction...
Ken Figenus said:
Bigends said:
If the Police car had slowed and crept through the lights - as theyre trained too - at a reasonable speed then this probably wouldnt have happened.
Lurking but have to say that this is my experience of how things work from my personal observations too. Blues and twos are not a licence to slam through junctions with impunity, and I have never ever seen them used that way either. Professionals that we depend upon then live to drive another day and make it to the call. Do you have any idea of the age/experience of the officer that slammed into you - unlikely to have red mist if time served I guess, as these guys really are some of the best drivers in the world. Given what they do daily such incidents like this are rare.
Good luck and take it all they way if you are right; hate people who dont take it like a man as we all screw up now and again. Its a human feature!
TooMany2cvs said:
KungFooPanda said:
The traffic officer attending has explained to me that the police car was doing 83mph on the approach
Irrelevant.KungFooPanda said:
he braked to 56mph 5 seconds before the accident
125 metres away. Yet you didn't see him in that time.KungFooPanda said:
3 seconds before the accident he put his blue lights on.
75 metres away. Yet you didn't see him in that time.KungFooPanda said:
By this time I had already pulled away and was looking left as I crossed the junction.
At night, and you didn't notice approaching headlamps in five seconds and 125 metres, and you didn't notice blue strobe lights being added to them in three seconds and 75 metres?And if the police car was doing 56 mph 125m from the collision and already on the brake (he had been doing 83 previously) why wasn't he well able to stop before hitting the OP?
And why didn't the police driver notice a car in his way, and do something different to avoid the collision?
KungFooPanda said:
Im a bit miffed to say the least as neither side seems to be taking into consideration any of the data recorder information that is sitting in the police station. The traffic officer attending has explained to me that the police car was doing 83mph on the approach, he braked to 56mph 5 seconds before the accident, 3 seconds before the accident he put his blue lights on. By this time I had already pulled away and was looking left as I crossed the junction.
So he was doing 83 MPH without Blue lights and still claiming it was your fault?IF that is true, I suggest it is time complain to PCC, involve the national media and get a better lawyer.
--- edit ---
KungFooPanda said:
Thats why Im seeking independent advice next week.
This is the very best thing you can do. The interests of a claim management company are not the same as yours.
Edited by Martin4x4 on Sunday 22 March 08:52
Mk3Spitfire said:
KungFooPanda said:
No...I think I have a really lazy legal team. They are sending me the case file so I can read it. Im also visiting the police station next week to get copies of the evidence held there. I'll then be sitting with an independent. To go through options. Approaching red lights at 56mph, at night in the rain with no blue lights on? Normal police procedure? If so Im surprised they havent killed anyone yet.
I can't/wont speak for the police because it wasn't me, and I wasn't there.What I was getting at, was that a professional legal team, having dealt, I imagine with hundreds of accidents are under the impression that damage limitation is the way forward. That to me suggests they feel there is more to it...otherwise they'd pursue it and argue the case more.
If they are that lazy...can you change them? Or employ your own if these are via your insurance?
I'm not trying to be obtuse, by the way.
Martin4x4 said:
What was the speed limit for the road the Police car was on?
Can you provide a link to the junction on Google maps?
somewhat irrelevant in terms of the law - as the Police assert a legitimate exemption claim Can you provide a link to the junction on Google maps?
slightly relevant with regard to force policy for the vehicle / driver combination
KungFooPanda said:
Martin4x4 said:
What was the speed limit for the road the Police car was on?
70mph
Can you provide a link to the junction on Google maps?
70mph
Can you provide a link to the junction on Google maps?
If he stopped at traffic lights, it won't be 70 will it, or is that not what the post means. Can't find the earlier reference to it.
Greg66 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
KungFooPanda said:
The traffic officer attending has explained to me that the police car was doing 83mph on the approach
Irrelevant.KungFooPanda said:
he braked to 56mph 5 seconds before the accident
125 metres away. Yet you didn't see him in that time.KungFooPanda said:
3 seconds before the accident he put his blue lights on.
75 metres away. Yet you didn't see him in that time.KungFooPanda said:
By this time I had already pulled away and was looking left as I crossed the junction.
At night, and you didn't notice approaching headlamps in five seconds and 125 metres, and you didn't notice blue strobe lights being added to them in three seconds and 75 metres?And if the police car was doing 56 mph 125m from the collision and already on the brake (he had been doing 83 previously) why wasn't he well able to stop before hitting the OP?
And why didn't the police driver notice a car in his way, and do something different to avoid the collision?
I was sitting at the traffic light junction of a dual carriageway. The stop line is approx 10m back from the junction. My light turned green. I looked right and saw lights in the distance (no blue lights). I assumed that the vehicles would be slowing as they had a red light so I proceeded to pull out of the junction looking left. (Its a wide junction and a main route to a port so there are many foreign vehicles use the road some of which failed to stop in the past resulting at deaths at this junction). When I then looked right again I saw the front end of an armed response vehicle with blue lights flashing. He hit me on my front drivers quarter, my front axle taking the impact, spinning me round coming to rest parallel with the dual carriageway. The ARV driver and the attending traffic officers all asked why I had not seen the blue lights and I told them I didn't know. I'd driven out of this junction for 14 years and this question bugged me for two weeks until some of the information from the data recorder started to trickle through. I rang the attending traffic officer one morning and explained I still couldn't understand why I had not seen the ARVs blue lights. He told me 'I will put your mind to rest, he didn't have them on until 3 secs before he hit you'. He thought this was strange, I thought it was unbelievable that I had been led to believe that he had his blue lights on whilst travelling down the dual carriageway. He also explained to me that as an advanced driver he should have approached in the outside lane to give himself more room if a car had come out of the junction. I told him that he couldnt go into the outside lane as there was another police car in that lane not far behind him. (During the crah this car came across the front of me and stopped down the road). If I hadn't have braked then I would have been hit by two police cars!
Obviously this is my account of the event. In the police statement (which I will be receiving next week) they were travelling 'at no more than 30mph through the junction', one statement which the data recorder proves a lie. What annoys me most about this is I am a great supporter of the uniformed services (being ex-military). We all have/had a difficult job to do and sometimes we get things wrong. The way that this has been turned on its head to make the police the victims is disgraceful and I having nothing but contempt for the officers involved in this incident.
This is the junction the night after the accident, same time, same weather but it was raining the night of the incident. The kerbing on the left is @75m, the point at which the ARV blue lights were turned on, the ARV was doing @56mph (83mph before that). My vehicle was sat behind the direction sign you can see at the end of the slip road waiting to turn right.
Would you say that 56mph is an appropriate speed for these conditions, this far from a red light when you are supposed to treat it as a give way?
56 Mph Braking Distance (fast reactions)
Thinking Distance: 45 ft (14 m)
Braking Distance: 314 ft (96 m)
Stopping Distance: 359 ft (109 m) - 34m past the junction?
When, if you were approaching this junction, would you say was the right time to put on your blue lights to alert traffic of your position?
Which lane and how, as an advanced driver would you approach this junction?
Edited by KungFooPanda on Monday 23 March 03:07
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