Lucky to be alive.

Author
Discussion

Matttracker

630 posts

146 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
You really need a lawyer, we are taught to go through red with extreme caution, slow in, fast out same as any hazard, I can't comment on this particular case but I'd be on the phone to the insurance daily,
Speak to your local inspector about it if it's the same force.

Ken Figenus

5,678 posts

116 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
gtidriver said:
About 15years ago i had a head on crash with a police car. I turned a light left curve after going through a green traffic light, the police woman was passing stationary traffic on the wrong side of the road,that where wait on a red light when we collidied. She too didn't have her siren on,just her blue lights flashing. There was no apology from her at all, she was on shout to an attempted suicide and tried to make me feel guilty as id got in her way. Her sergeant arrived and breatherlised both of us,both all clear.The sergeant took statements from both of us and we left they scene, i got a hire car a day or so later, my car was a wreck. I took photos of the scene a few days later it showed that the junction that id driven around was obscured by a large bush in the front garden of the property on the corner I would never of seen her,I handed all my paper work to the police insurance company within 3-4days, it took her over 6weeks. In the end i had to go through my own insurance company as the police insurance said i was at fault, the solicitor recommended that i settled on 60/40 blame in my favour. It left a very bitter taste after that and i was extremely pissed off that i was partly to blame. If it had been a member of the public driving down that road on the wrong side of the road they would have been prosecuted and it would have been a total non fault my end, emergency services accidents seam to go 50/50.

Good luck op, get as much evidence as you possibly can. Unfortunately all my witnesses just drove off.
To partly blame you, on the correct side of the road, seems absurd. What is going on? What could be the logic there? What is to be gained by not taking it on the chin as a hazard of duty or a poor call? KF

scubadude

2,618 posts

196 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
A few years ago I was rammed while stationary waiting to join a roundabout, the insurers decided it was 50:50 because I didn't have my foot on the brake!!!

Anyway, when the dust had settled the knob who hit me sued separately for the other 50% and to my shock my insurers just paid him (to save the hassle)

Luckily since then I've not had to but since all accidents seem to be 50:50 so insurers make more money make sure you sue for the rest.


To the OP, from your description BiB don't have a leg to stand on- I'd have demanded his suspension from the senior officer on the spot- passing through a solid Red at speed is against their driving standards and he should be facing serious internal investigation at the minimum.

Get lawyered up and push for everything you can- in my experience if you don't puch you often end up loosing out.

mrben1234

44 posts

126 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
Difficult to comment without pictures/ Google StreetView. I notice police slow to an absolute crawl (5mph or less) when crossing junctions on red, even when visibility is fairly good. Surely that's how it always should be.

aw51 121565

4,771 posts

232 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
Ken Figenus said:
gtidriver said:
About 15years ago i had a head on crash with a police car. I turned a light left curve after going through a green traffic light, the police woman was passing stationary traffic on the wrong side of the road,that where wait on a red light when we collidied. She too didn't have her siren on,just her blue lights flashing. There was no apology from her at all, she was on shout to an attempted suicide and tried to make me feel guilty as id got in her way. Her sergeant arrived and breatherlised both of us,both all clear.The sergeant took statements from both of us and we left they scene, i got a hire car a day or so later, my car was a wreck. I took photos of the scene a few days later it showed that the junction that id driven around was obscured by a large bush in the front garden of the property on the corner I would never of seen her,I handed all my paper work to the police insurance company within 3-4days, it took her over 6weeks. In the end i had to go through my own insurance company as the police insurance said i was at fault, the solicitor recommended that i settled on 60/40 blame in my favour. It left a very bitter taste after that and i was extremely pissed off that i was partly to blame. If it had been a member of the public driving down that road on the wrong side of the road they would have been prosecuted and it would have been a total non fault my end, emergency services accidents seam to go 50/50.

Good luck op, get as much evidence as you possibly can. Unfortunately all my witnesses just drove off.
To partly blame you, on the correct side of the road, seems absurd. What is going on? What could be the logic there? What is to be gained by not taking it on the chin as a hazard of duty or a poor call? KF
Insurers' main aim is to minimise their outgoings, this (for whatever reasons, and I'd cynically guess that avoiding expensive litigation was a major factor as it is nowadays wink ) occured here...

Jedilai

96 posts

120 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
gtidriver said:
In the end i had to go through my own insurance company as the police insurance said i was at fault, the solicitor recommended that i settled on 60/40 blame in my favour. It left a very bitter taste after that and i was extremely pissed off that i was partly to blame. If it had been a member of the public driving down that road on the wrong side of the road they would have been prosecuted and it would have been a total non fault my end, emergency services accidents seam to go 50/50.
If this is the typical expected outcome then it makes me sad.

SickFish

3,503 posts

188 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
mrben1234 said:
Difficult to comment without pictures/ Google StreetView. I notice police slow to an absolute crawl (5mph or less) when crossing junctions on red, even when visibility is fairly good. Surely that's how it always should be.
Very much this, I was crossing the road the other day and the traffic lights went red and the green man was bleeping.... then an X5 came screaming along.... they slowed right down for me to cross but I just waved him through and he nodded as a thanks, but if I was a tosser I *could* have made him wait while I crossed I guess...

gtidriver

3,334 posts

186 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
Sorry but i can't screen grab, my crash happened in Folkestone Kent. I was travelling along Radnor Park Road away from Blackbull Road and ST Johns church on the one way,heading towards the traffic light cross roads which has Pavilion Road to my right, Park Farm Road ahead of me and a continuation of Radnor Park Road to my left. The copper was driving down Radnor Park Road and was heading towards Pavilion Road and beyond. We crashed just after id turned through the lights going up Radnor Park Road.

[url]

|http://thumbsnap.com/9brXuE8M[/url]

Edited by gtidriver on Wednesday 1st October 14:51

wibblebrain

656 posts

139 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
That reminds me: I must get my dashcam installed and working.

white_goodman

4,042 posts

190 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
ferrariF50lover said:
I've never been in this situation from your side, but I've done similar from the policeman's.

Do you mind awfully if I ask why you stopped? If your scenario is as it seems by your description, you were in the path of an oncoming car and your reaction was to stop dead, ensuring that you remained in its path, rather than accelerating out of the way (or at least attempting to).
Was it a conscious decision, or did you just hit the brake by default?

I'm not taking the piss, you did what you did and that's an end to it, I'm trying to understand why those couple of odd people who have done to me similar in the past have done so. I can't ask them, so I'm asking you.

Simon.
I wasn't there but from the OP's description, the Police car hit the front of his car, so I'm assuming he couldn't accelerate out of the way and was hoping to stop short of the Police car's path. If the Police car had hit the back of his car then I would agree with you but had he accelerated he may have put himself directly in the Police car's path and could now be dead. I'm surprised that a Police car wouldn't give a short blast of the siren as a warning to other road users when going through a red light on a junction at speed.

9mm

3,128 posts

209 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
KungFooPanda said:
Last week I left work at 22:30. It was still raining and it had been for most of the day. As I approached the traffic lights near my work, I reduced speed, almost coming to a stop, as the lights where red. The lights then changed to green and I drove off, looking right and then left. When I looked right again all I could see was the lights of the police cars, the nearside one coming straight at me. I attempted to brake but due to the speed of the police car I could not manoeuvre out of the way. I stopped about 10ft into the road and the BMW X5 police car collided with the front drivers quarter of my car, spinning my car through 90o and my car came to rest at the roadside. Both police vehicles had there blue lights on but no sirens. My side airbags had gone off and the front of my vehicle from the drivers door pillar to the front bumper was severely damaged. The front drivers wheel had also collapsed.

About 10 minutes later a traffic officer arrived he breathalysed me and took a statement. The officer who had crashed into the side of me, who apparently was armed response, had moved his BMW X5 prior to the traffic officer taking photographs. He was also breathalysed and gave a statement. Another traffic officer then arrived and explained to me that the normal outcome is one of joint liability. I asked the traffic officer if the armed response units carried cameras in the vehicles as I deemed his speed and that of the other police vehicle was not appropriate for the conditions, whether on a call or not.

There was also a witness who was coming up behind me who thought I was dead when the police car hit, such was the impact. Indeed so did I. He also gave his name and address to the police.

Today I rang my car insurance to see how my claim was doing and I was told that my car is a total loss and that the other party is claiming for a hire car on my insurance. I explained that the car that hit me was a Police armed response vehicle and that they’d be pushed to get one from Avis. He couldn’t understand why the police would request a hire car in the circumstances.

On the evening of the accident I thought the actions of the police where very professional with regards to the way they dealt with the aftermath but I’m afraid I find myself feeling let down and taken advantage of since I have been in contact with my insurance company.

If anyone has any experience of such things or can give me any advice then I would be grateful. I have a meeting with my legal team on Thursday to discuss the matter.

I fail to understand how someone can almost kill someone and it be joint liability given the speed and conditions involved.
Link to the press reporting of this please or it didn't happen.

morgrp

4,128 posts

197 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
You need to get a decent lawyer and pursue this through the court. Go back and gather as much evidence as possible. You also need plenty of pictures of the damaged cars, both yours and the police - In a court situation they will have provide these as evidence - if they can't or won't provide details of their vehicle then their it makes their defense look shaky. - The police throw their weight around and assume that because they are effectively an authority they can can do what they like and the general public will simply take it. A friend of mine took on the Welsh police force many years ago using Lib Dem MP Simon Hughes as his Barrister. The police never stood a chance and he won the case. He did his home work and culminated a mass of evidence. Take pictures of everything and measure everything, distances etc. You also need to find the details of that witness and speak to them.

numtumfutunch

4,704 posts

137 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
9mm said:
Link to the press reporting of this please or it didn't happen.
+1

750turbo

6,164 posts

223 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
numtumfutunch said:
9mm said:
Link to the press reporting of this please or it didn't happen.
+1
Just registered.

1 post

Does not reply...

frown

kev b

2,708 posts

165 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
I was taught that green meant proceed with caution, how much more cautious could the OP have been, the police car hit him, no avoiding action was possible.

The police car was travelling too fast to stop in time so to me the fault lies with the police driver.

This sort of behaviour by insurance companies and culpable drivers really makes me see red, a bus hit my stationary car and until a witness came forward it was going 50/50. My wife had a newly qualified driver run into her, admit liability, then later deny everything so we ended up paying for our repairs as my wife did not think to get witnesses details.

Lesson: make sure you get witnesses.

BlimeyCharlie

901 posts

141 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
750turbo said:
numtumfutunch said:
9mm said:
Link to the press reporting of this please or it didn't happen.
+1
Just registered.

1 post

Does not reply...

frown
The fact you have confirmed that they had flashing blue lights on (at night) does not help your cause, because you failed to spot the blue lights...that is what the lights are on for.
Not being a smart ar*e but you've kind of contradicted yourself. Accidents happen I know and the 'other' party will argue that they were following procedure and you failed to spot them and emerged from junction, assuming we take your version at face value.

Might be polite to reply to the responses you've had on here too.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
No mention of this online or on twitter.

KungFooPanda

Original Poster:

29 posts

113 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
BlimeyCharlie said:
750turbo said:
numtumfutunch said:
9mm said:
Link to the press reporting of this please or it didn't happen.
+1
Just registered.

1 post

Does not reply...

frown
The fact you have confirmed that they had flashing blue lights on (at night) does not help your cause, because you failed to spot the blue lights...that is what the lights are on for.
Not being a smart ar*e but you've kind of contradicted yourself. Accidents happen I know and the 'other' party will argue that they were following procedure and you failed to spot them and emerged from junction, assuming we take your version at face value.

Might be polite to reply to the responses you've had on here too.
First of all thank you very much for all the replies. I'm a shift worker so have not had chance to reply until now so I apologise but now will catch up with your posts.

KungFooPanda

Original Poster:

29 posts

113 months

Thursday 2nd October 2014
quotequote all
dudleybloke said:
Don't these police vehicles have cameras fitted these days?
When the two traffic police arrived I did ask about this and I was told not all police cars do but traffic officers cars do. Im calling the local police station tomorrow to enquire about evidence they have. I’ll also ask about the data recorders that someone mentioned.
ikarl said:
On Monday a Fire Engine on a call with blues/sirens going passed me on the left on a roundabout. Our light was red and he literally passed through the red light at 10-15mph.

Had he went through any faster he would have destroyed the Astra that came through 'his' green light at the speed limit (NSL roundabout) so was doing probably 45-50mph.

I commented to the wife that the driver of the fire engine must've been expecting it. Had the police officer done the same, the accident may have been much less likely to happen.

OP - Can you link the streetview from Google Maps so we can see the junction in question please?
I don’t want to post photos of the junction as yet as it’s an ongoing investigation. There was about 75-100m visibility looking right, there where high trees beyond that. It was clear when I looked, I then looked left as I approached the junction then right again and BAMMM! A car travelling at 100mph can cover 100m in just over 2.2 secs so to say I should have seen them is not true. I have exited that junction for the last 14 years and you could say I have a routine. Its served me well until that night. The police officer is also the one with the advanced driving qualifications so I would have expected a different approach on his behalf.
ferrariF50lover said:
I've never been in this situation from your side, but I've done similar from the policeman's.

Do you mind awfully if I ask why you stopped? If your scenario is as it seems by your description, you were in the path of an oncoming car and your reaction was to stop dead, ensuring that you remained in its path, rather than accelerating out of the way (or at least attempting to).
Was it a conscious decision, or did you just hit the brake by default?

I'm not taking the piss, you did what you did and that's an end to it, I'm trying to understand why those couple of odd people who have done to me similar in the past have done so. I can't ask them, so I'm asking you.

Simon.
Simon, there where two police cars. One in the outside lane and just behind looked like a BMW estate and the nearside one the BMW X5. If I didn’t brake I think I would be dead.
burwoodman said:
KungFuPanda said:
burwoodman said:
Terzo123 said:
Rovinghawk said:
If you definitely went through a green & he definitely went through a red then it's 100% his fault. It's his job to avoid you, not vice versa.
This is not correct.
I love posts like this. Very helpful.
Terzo is correct. Just to expand on his point, have a look at the case of Griffin v Mersey Regional Ambulance Service. Similar circumstances. Ambulance went through a traffic light junction on blues and twos colliding with civilian vehicle going through junction. Ambulance went through a red albeit at low speed and civilian driver had benefit of green light. Liability was apportioned 60/40 in favour of the ambulance driver ie civilian shouldered 60% of the blame. Judgment was that emergence drivers should treat red lights as give ways but also civilian drivers should be alive to the fact that other vehicles may be passing through junctions even when the lights are green in their favour. When I was in practice, this was generally the split in liability which we went along with but at the end of the day, all cases are decided on their own facts.

OP, I think you will have to take a split liability decision if you take the case further.
The critical point may be 'slow speed'. The OP says the Police car was driving too quickly and if he has a witness...

To spin a car 90 degrees would take serious impact and speed. i would be fighting any blame levelled at me.

Edited by burwoodman on Wednesday 1st October 12:02
I think this liability thing is the bit that’s annoying me. Looking back the fact that the police traffic sergeants first words to me where about joint liability was strange and also the fact that I was made to give a statement when I had my head pummelled by an airbag and was obviously in shock. Also the police officer involved in the crash moving his car before photos where taken. Sounds like a conspiracy I know but they’ve had three accidents in four days with the public so I guess they are good as manipulating a situation

scubadude said:
A few years ago I was rammed while stationary waiting to join a roundabout, the insurers decided it was 50:50 because I didn't have my foot on the brake!!!

Anyway, when the dust had settled the knob who hit me sued separately for the other 50% and to my shock my insurers just paid him (to save the hassle)

Luckily since then I've not had to but since all accidents seem to be 50:50 so insurers make more money make sure you sue for the rest.


To the OP, from your description BiB don't have a leg to stand on- I'd have demanded his suspension from the senior officer on the spot- passing through a solid Red at speed is against their driving standards and he should be facing serious internal investigation at the minimum.

Get lawyered up and push for everything you can- in my experience if you don't puch you often end up loosing out.
I have a meeting with legal tomorrow so will update tomorrow night

numtumfutunch said:
9mm said:
Link to the press reporting of this please or it didn't happen.
+1
Lol. There is no press report! Strange but true.

Inkyfingers said:
No mention of this online or on twitter.
I also looked at the Twitter, Facebook , website of the force involved and there is no mention. There is also no mention of the other two accidents the force has had with the public last week on facebook/twitter but there was a mention in the local rag..



Edited by KungFooPanda on Thursday 2nd October 00:18

jjones

4,422 posts

192 months

Thursday 2nd October 2014
quotequote all
when i got stopped by an armed response car about 2 years ago it had no camera (extremely fortunately for me). (unmarked r32)