Telling "friend" from "foe".. armed forces on the street.
Discussion
Mill Wheel said:
Curious that UK Gov. thinks uniformed soldiers would be perceived that way.
In Paris, nobody gives them a second glance - although of course they do have the Gendarmerie in France which is more military in operation than police, so perhaps they don't find the camo clad soldiers much different.
I'm sure Lewis Collins won't be missed - they'll probably have Sean Bean stand in, or Pierce Brosnan!
It's not soldiers in uniform that is seen as bad, that's fine although putting a target on your head round Woolwich isn't a great idea, but uniformed soldiers basically doing a police officers job on the streets isn't a good look.In Paris, nobody gives them a second glance - although of course they do have the Gendarmerie in France which is more military in operation than police, so perhaps they don't find the camo clad soldiers much different.
I'm sure Lewis Collins won't be missed - they'll probably have Sean Bean stand in, or Pierce Brosnan!
Mill Wheel said:
La Liga said:
Where in the UK do we have armed undercover soldiers?
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/N...The Sunday Times said:
UNDERCOVER soldiers have been deployed at four big shopping centres in London and the West Midlands amid fears of a terrorist gun attack by British jihadists returning from Syria, security sources said yesterday.
Sorry, I thought you all knew. 
Mill Wheel said:
plus the fact police have arrested several men in connection with a suspected terrorist plat, and a gun and ammunition were recovered.
It would not be the first time that special forces have been used - they were used against an IRA cell operating in Gibraltar, resulting in the deaths of all three suspects.
WRT the IRA problems. According to personnel in the forces at the time ,if the IRA ,persist in using the term "ARMY" ,they've declared war and should be expected to treated as an enemy force. It would not be the first time that special forces have been used - they were used against an IRA cell operating in Gibraltar, resulting in the deaths of all three suspects.
I would be very surprised if UK policemen/armed forces are allowed to parade around with the ability to use any concealed weapons.
I would have thought terrorist training 101 would have been to just shout, "Police, hands up" or something similarly authoritative. I certainly wouldn't believe someone in a polo shirt and jeans if they said they were an undercover squaddie.
I would have thought terrorist training 101 would have been to just shout, "Police, hands up" or something similarly authoritative. I certainly wouldn't believe someone in a polo shirt and jeans if they said they were an undercover squaddie.
sebhaque said:
I would be very surprised if UK policemen/armed forces are allowed to parade around with the ability to use any concealed weapons.
Really?You think HMQ, the PM and other leading figures just waft through town with Dixon of Dock Green and his trusty police-issue truncheon to protect them?
Next time you see a Royal convoy on the news, check out the Range Rover or LR Discovery following the main vehicle. It's not there to carry the Corgis.
Granted it's not normal policing and it's not exaclty covert, but cops wiv shooters are out there.
See also Jean Charles De Menezes.
The threat in this case is a MTFA in a major shopping mall or city centre from people who in previous cases have simply set out to mow down as many members of the public as possible - not I would have thought the usual threat facing armed police, so I guess that is why special forces have been considered.
They also have access to team members with appropriate language skills.
They also have access to team members with appropriate language skills.
If ever I was caught up in a situation as described, I can honestly say I would much much rather hope that the army were on the way, any soldiers at all would be good it wouldn't have to be SF. In fact I'd rather have the Navy send someone than have the Police turn up, they are so far out of their depth it is painful, with a risk adverse approach that means the public will die rather than armed officers putting it on the line the way squaddies will. The biggest thing I have learnt is that if ever you are unlucky enough to get caught up in something similar, then run away, crawl if you have to but get away from the area by any means legal or not, put yourself and your loved ones first because there is no one coming to help you till the bullets and crying have stopped. I have no doubt that the guys on the ground are brave enough but the training is lacking and the management are scared to commit them to risk.
mel said:
I have no doubt that the guys on the ground are brave enough but the training is lacking and the management are scared to commit them to risk.
There are ample national contingencies (and area-specific ones) and training for 'active shooter' attacks. Where are you drawing the lack of training / risk-averse / scared-management conclusions from? mel said:
If ever I was caught up in a situation as described, I can honestly say I would much much rather hope that the army were on the way, any soldiers at all would be good it wouldn't have to be SF. In fact I'd rather have the Navy send someone than have the Police turn up, they are so far out of their depth it is painful, with a risk adverse approach that means the public will die rather than armed officers putting it on the line the way squaddies will. The biggest thing I have learnt is that if ever you are unlucky enough to get caught up in something similar, then run away, crawl if you have to but get away from the area by any means legal or not, put yourself and your loved ones first because there is no one coming to help you till the bullets and crying have stopped. I have no doubt that the guys on the ground are brave enough but the training is lacking and the management are scared to commit them to risk.
Please tell me your experience in armed Policing and your knowledge of the training which makes you qualified to make such a statement. I'd love to hear it. mel said:
Personal experience of watching the training close up.
Which parts of the tactics concerned you? I've read the contingencies and they seem as reasonable as they can be given the exceptionally extreme nature of a spontaneous active shooter. London is likely to be better equipped given their CT experience and CO units.
Sorry, but I don't feel it would be appropriate to be any more specific and my comment was deliberately vague and non tactically specific for obvious reasons. I'm not comfortable to elaborate in any greater detail than I have done, suffice to say my opinions are not based on any "anti police" sentiment nor bias, but have been formed by very recent, close hand experience. I was very disappointed as I had expected and hoped for much better.
The choice is entirely yours to either dismiss my comment as being made by someone that knows FA and is full of BS or you can accept them as shockingly true, I care not either way and have no ego to protect but I'm sorry I cannot be drawn into further clarification of specifics.
What I can and will say is that it is my opinion of the first/second wave of armed response and the handling of the situation in the first few hours, I haven't got direct enough experience of the later and more specialist units to pass comment on their effectiveness.
The choice is entirely yours to either dismiss my comment as being made by someone that knows FA and is full of BS or you can accept them as shockingly true, I care not either way and have no ego to protect but I'm sorry I cannot be drawn into further clarification of specifics.
What I can and will say is that it is my opinion of the first/second wave of armed response and the handling of the situation in the first few hours, I haven't got direct enough experience of the later and more specialist units to pass comment on their effectiveness.
mel said:
Sorry, but I don't feel it would be appropriate to be any more specific and my comment was deliberately vague and non tactically specific for obvious reasons. I'm not comfortable to elaborate in any greater detail than I have done, suffice to say my opinions are not based on any "anti police" sentiment nor bias, but have been formed by very recent, close hand experience. I was very disappointed as I had expected and hoped for much better.
The choice is entirely yours to either dismiss my comment as being made by someone that knows FA and is full of BS or you can accept them as shockingly true, I care not either way and have no ego to protect but I'm sorry I cannot be drawn into further clarification of specifics.
What I can and will say is that it is my opinion of the first/second wave of armed response and the handling of the situation in the first few hours, I haven't got direct enough experience of the later and more specialist units to pass comment on their effectiveness.
That's fair enough and sensible. The choice is entirely yours to either dismiss my comment as being made by someone that knows FA and is full of BS or you can accept them as shockingly true, I care not either way and have no ego to protect but I'm sorry I cannot be drawn into further clarification of specifics.
What I can and will say is that it is my opinion of the first/second wave of armed response and the handling of the situation in the first few hours, I haven't got direct enough experience of the later and more specialist units to pass comment on their effectiveness.
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just happen to disagree with yours. There are risk averse bosses out there, but in an extreme situation such as an Kenya shopping mall type scenario the boots on the ground would make the call and go in. To say that the armed cops wouldn't risk themselves to save the public is hugely insulting.
Ive seen armed undercover police officers in Trafford centre a couple of times, I find the women officers are easier to spot as they dress in business attire but with flat shoes, I work in various offices and women never wear flat shoes, they also wear more fitted clothes and its easier to see odd bulges.
I go a lot though & this was a few years back around Christmas, their was probably some intelligence or such about a possible attack, or they could just be shopping or perhaps training, the SOCA office are near Trafford Centre.
I go a lot though & this was a few years back around Christmas, their was probably some intelligence or such about a possible attack, or they could just be shopping or perhaps training, the SOCA office are near Trafford Centre.
sebhaque said:
I would be very surprised if UK policemen/armed forces are allowed to parade around with the ability to use any concealed weapons.
I would have thought terrorist training 101 would have been to just shout, "Police, hands up" or something similarly authoritative. I certainly wouldn't believe someone in a polo shirt and jeans if they said they were an undercover squaddie.
Precisely.I would have thought terrorist training 101 would have been to just shout, "Police, hands up" or something similarly authoritative. I certainly wouldn't believe someone in a polo shirt and jeans if they said they were an undercover squaddie.
If a MTFA kicked off how would the police react, if there are other agencies with firearms, who are not in uniform or readily identified to them?
The De Menezes case highlighted shortcomings in the police command/communications structure, which in the light of the Duggan shooting, do not seem to have been addressed.
I believe that risk assessment is best undertaken at the point of risk - but this does not yet seem to be the case in the Met.
Perhaps this is why the SF have been brought in?
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