Telling "friend" from "foe".. armed forces on the street.
Discussion
Zoobeef said:
Mill Wheel said:
Curious that UK Gov. thinks uniformed soldiers would be perceived that way.
In Paris, nobody gives them a second glance - although of course they do have the Gendarmerie in France which is more military in operation than police, so perhaps they don't find the camo clad soldiers much different.
I'm sure Lewis Collins won't be missed - they'll probably have Sean Bean stand in, or Pierce Brosnan!
It's not soldiers in uniform that is seen as bad, that's fine although putting a target on your head round Woolwich isn't a great idea, but uniformed soldiers basically doing a police officers job on the streets isn't a good look.In Paris, nobody gives them a second glance - although of course they do have the Gendarmerie in France which is more military in operation than police, so perhaps they don't find the camo clad soldiers much different.
I'm sure Lewis Collins won't be missed - they'll probably have Sean Bean stand in, or Pierce Brosnan!
French local police 'Police Municipale' or 'Garde Champetre' are plastic police,
the Police Nationale do the normal policing - but traffic policing the heavy duty policing falls to the Paramilitary Gendarmes .
the Peel Model and the actual concept of Policing by consent seperate the Police and military totally - hence the reason that in mainland UK Service Police are not Sworn Constables ( and where they work in mixed environments end up functioning like the French Municipal Police if they have to detain / arrest a civvie ) and why MODplod are civvies not service personnel .
mel said:
I will site three instances of non sensitive things that did not impress but are of no benefit to the bad guys.
Police response to shooter, armed two man team advances towards shooting behind a large rumbling shield on castors, steps over casualties, and moves forward.
Army response would be to step over casualties and advance towards shooting using cover and move, however they would have dropped field dressings and CAT's for casualties, on the principle that self help is better than no help, and knowing how ferociously gun shot wounds bleed.
Police are backed up by Ambulance HART's dressed in helmets and body armour, principle being they follow in "on the shoulder" assess, treat and evacuate. Reality was they were a good 40-50 minutes later and were held "round the corner" until command had received notification that the area was secure.
Army are backed up by Patrol Medics who really are on the shoulder and will treat as people fall.
The "Golden Hour" is golden for a reason and the idea of holding back HART medics who volunteer for the role and are wearing the same protective equipment as the police smells of risk aversion, classic case of all the gear but not being allowed to use it.
Police tactical awareness, extremely poor use of cover, darkness or appreciation of "silhouetting" an Army raw recruit straight out of basic training would have a better understanding.
These and other things helped form the opinion I gave earlier about if you're caught up in it, you're on your own till the smoke dies down.
shock horror , tactics used in a war zone where the casualties are also trained soldiers and the medics are armed and dangerous are different to tactices used in Policing where casualties are either civilians or none armed response officers and the medics are not armed ... Police response to shooter, armed two man team advances towards shooting behind a large rumbling shield on castors, steps over casualties, and moves forward.
Army response would be to step over casualties and advance towards shooting using cover and move, however they would have dropped field dressings and CAT's for casualties, on the principle that self help is better than no help, and knowing how ferociously gun shot wounds bleed.
Police are backed up by Ambulance HART's dressed in helmets and body armour, principle being they follow in "on the shoulder" assess, treat and evacuate. Reality was they were a good 40-50 minutes later and were held "round the corner" until command had received notification that the area was secure.
Army are backed up by Patrol Medics who really are on the shoulder and will treat as people fall.
The "Golden Hour" is golden for a reason and the idea of holding back HART medics who volunteer for the role and are wearing the same protective equipment as the police smells of risk aversion, classic case of all the gear but not being allowed to use it.
Police tactical awareness, extremely poor use of cover, darkness or appreciation of "silhouetting" an Army raw recruit straight out of basic training would have a better understanding.
These and other things helped form the opinion I gave earlier about if you're caught up in it, you're on your own till the smoke dies down.
HART is still new, HART in tactical roles newer still. Masny ambulance managers are lay people not clinicians with operational experience - the Ambulance service is weaker than the rest of the NHS in havign good strong clinician management structures as their own school single managmeent structures when everyone was a millar trained ambulance man got filled with lay managers without in some services any real consideration to a Clinicla management structure.
TheProfessor said:
Yes I'd imagine the concept of advancing fire would be alien to most AFO's, and would go contrary to their containment tactics taught in the classroom and on the range.
And in all the regular, real life deployments. It is a change of mindset doing everything they can to not shoot someone, to practically the opposite.
I still expect in a real scenario that unless the shooter specifically saves ammunition he'll / she'll run out prior to any response in a spontaneous incident.
La Liga said:
I still expect in a real scenario that unless the shooter specifically saves ammunition he'll / she'll run out prior to any response in a spontaneous incident.
Shortage of weapons and ammunition does not seem to be a problem!http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2567127/As...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/one-uks-bigge...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10699...
In both the Mumbai and Westgate incidents, large quantities of munitions were used, as well as improvised explosives.
Tactics can be found on the internet, so it does not take a great deal of planning to mount such an attack.
moribund said:
I'd prefer they carried on being trained to do everything they can to not shoot someone. Since the London bombings more unarmed members of the British public have been killed by Police officers than by terrorists, so maintaining a bit of perspective might be good.
Reason to worry if you were an undercover special forces operative with a concealed weapon??Mill Wheel said:
In both the Mumbai and Westgate incidents, large quantities of munitions were used, as well as improvised explosives. Tactics can be found on the internet, so it does not take a great deal of planning to mount such an attack.
An individual would do well to carry all that. We've been talking about 'lone wolf' attacks, from what I can see. Mumbai was multiple people. A conspiracy like that has a much higher probability of being prevented.
If is hard to get weapons and quantities of ammunition in the UK, again, without someone noticing.
Had a chat with a mate at work today - posted to my unit on light duties - he's ex-firearms until recently. He said that if killing was in progress at the time of the call then theyd enter the mall or wherever it was taking place - preferably waiting for backup first and engage if necessary. If no shooting taking place then theyd put a containment on. Other than some special forces units hes not aware of any forces units trained for this type of scenario, and rules of engagement would remain the same as any other civvy armed incident.
Bigends said:
preferably waiting for backup first and engage if necessary.
Some nut job with an automatic weapon is shooting random folks in a shop, I would hope ARV officers would arive kit up and try their best with a Heckler and Koch to minimise further casulties by neutralizing said nut job.IanMorewood said:
Bigends said:
preferably waiting for backup first and engage if necessary.
Some nut job with an automatic weapon is shooting random folks in a shop, I would hope ARV officers would arive kit up and try their best with a Heckler and Koch to minimise further casulties by neutralizing said nut job.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29662245
Lone wolf may be one or two individuals who operate independently of known persons of interest.
I see these individuals have been "caught" using StreetView to plan their attacks.
Lone wolf may be one or two individuals who operate independently of known persons of interest.
I see these individuals have been "caught" using StreetView to plan their attacks.
Mill Wheel said:
How do SP&L feel about having armed officers on the street, as well as plain clothed undercover armed forces personnel?
...
I would prefer there was none at times when none are required. At the present time I would prefer that 1 in every 10 persons is an armed protection officer of some form....
While it is nice to pontificate and discuss this sort of thing and perhaps for some to fantasise what the bold posters here would do it is perhaps better if certain capabilities, fact or not, are not bandied about for nuggets to pick up on.
As far as France is concerned, I couldn't give a toss. As long as their police and border control are satisfied in witnessing illegal immigrants helping each other into UK bound transport, the French can be considered as contributing to the current security risk in the UK. I would be happy if the tunnel was concreted up and the ports were shut. Eases the security situation and keeps out a certain African origin virus...oh and the French.
emmaT2014 said:
As far as France is concerned, I couldn't give a toss. As long as their police and border control are satisfied in witnessing illegal immigrants helping each other into UK bound transport, the French can be considered as contributing to the current security risk in the UK. I would be happy if the tunnel was concreted up and the ports were shut. Eases the security situation and keeps out a certain African origin virus...oh and the French.
As I understand it, the French blame our attractive benefits and health care system, and are not happy with being saddled with the cost of policing their borders of people who wish to leave... while in our country, we won't let them leave if they don't have a passport!!I got caught up in an anti terrorist exercise in Le havre a few years ago which delayed our ferry.
when I (jokingly) suggested they would be better practicing at Calais, I was told they are so busy they simply don't have time for exercises.
In general, I have found the French are far less tolerant of all manner of anti social behaviour, and even a large number of the general population are not upset if the security forces rough up suspects, or use violence against criminal elements.
They are presently under fire for their attitude towards Gypsies whom they are repatriating with a degree of force not deemed acceptable in the UK.
Perhaps if the UK adopted a similar approach, we would not suffer so many of the activities that blight our streets - at the expense of the loss of a degree of personal freedoms.
grumpy52 said:
Trust me , having weapons pointed at you by police or army is not fun !
Once by armed Special Branch .
Once by German Border Police
Once by police armed response team (training exercise volunteer)
Many times at army checkpoints
I bet you'd be more nervous if you were undercover and actually carrying a weapon!Once by armed Special Branch .
Once by German Border Police
Once by police armed response team (training exercise volunteer)
Many times at army checkpoints
Armed forces that may be armed and in civilian clothing (Dont like the term undercover) would be doing so as a pre-arranged commitment so any other security forces would be informed that the person was armed and they would carry relevant I.D.
When I was in the forces there were occasions where military personnel were armed off base in uniform or civilian clothing it was very rare but not unheard of. This was a very long time ago and pre 9/11 and the forces are a very different animal nowadays so no idea if it still happens but those that know wouldn't be able to confirm or give specifics anyhow.
When I was in the forces there were occasions where military personnel were armed off base in uniform or civilian clothing it was very rare but not unheard of. This was a very long time ago and pre 9/11 and the forces are a very different animal nowadays so no idea if it still happens but those that know wouldn't be able to confirm or give specifics anyhow.
I've been near a few ships of the Grey Funnel Line in my time and there are usually a few sailor types wandering around aimlessly, carrying a factory-fresh SA-80 wondering what it is, so whilst there may be military personnel carrying weapons in the civilian world, it appears the Navy do things the other way around.
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