Discussion
In fairness, Dammit could be spot on and it was dangerous driving. The definition he quoted is the correct one. On the other hand though, there are always two sides to every story, and the van driver might give a different account of how it went.
CPS will rarely run with any kind of dangerous driving without at least 2 witness statements and so like you say, unless you can find that witness, you're struggling. Get a helmet cam is the best thing you could do.
CPS will rarely run with any kind of dangerous driving without at least 2 witness statements and so like you say, unless you can find that witness, you're struggling. Get a helmet cam is the best thing you could do.
Retroman said:
If the cyclist caused the accident then you can claim from them...
I've got third party insurance on any bicycles i use on the road. If i hit someone, and it's my fault they can claim from my insurance.
If i didn't have insurance and it was my fault they could still claim off me via small claims court.
And how many people see it that far? I've got third party insurance on any bicycles i use on the road. If i hit someone, and it's my fault they can claim from my insurance.
If i didn't have insurance and it was my fault they could still claim off me via small claims court.
The chance you would be able to get to a prosecution/your money back after claim is slim.
Dammit said:
"The way he/she drives falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver, and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous"
Strikes me that you are either trolling, or have your own agenda, or both.
I am the one who is trolling and has an agenda Strikes me that you are either trolling, or have your own agenda, or both.
you have repeatedly brought up the issue of number plates for cyclists, despite it have absolutely nothing to do with your story, and have decided that we need to be doing more to stop what you have decided is dangerous driving.
Given the circumstances in your original post I also go for 'Careless or Inconsiderate driving' as opposed to 'dangerous driving'. Based on the advice given by the CPS in:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/dangerous_d...
"What is 'Dangerous driving'?
A person drives dangerously when:
the way they drive falls far below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver; and
it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.
Some typical examples from court cases of dangerous driving are:
racing, going too fast, or driving aggressively;
ignoring traffic lights, road signs or warnings from passengers;
overtaking dangerously;
driving under the influence of drink or drugs, including prescription drugs;
driving when unfit, including having an injury, being unable to see clearly, not taking prescribed drugs, or being sleepy;
knowing the vehicle has a dangerous fault or an unsafe load;
the driver being avoidably and dangerously distracted, for example by:
using a hand-held phone or other equipment
reading, or looking at a map
talking to and looking at a passenger
lighting a cigarette, changing a CD or tape, tuning the radio.
What is 'Careless or inconsiderate driving'?
A person drives carelessly or inconsiderately when the way they drive falls below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver.
Some examples of careless driving are:
overtaking on the inside;
driving too close to another vehicle;
driving through a red light by mistake;
turning into the path of another vehicle;
the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
Examples of inconsiderate driving include:
flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights."
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/dangerous_d...
"What is 'Dangerous driving'?
A person drives dangerously when:
the way they drive falls far below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver; and
it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.
Some typical examples from court cases of dangerous driving are:
racing, going too fast, or driving aggressively;
ignoring traffic lights, road signs or warnings from passengers;
overtaking dangerously;
driving under the influence of drink or drugs, including prescription drugs;
driving when unfit, including having an injury, being unable to see clearly, not taking prescribed drugs, or being sleepy;
knowing the vehicle has a dangerous fault or an unsafe load;
the driver being avoidably and dangerously distracted, for example by:
using a hand-held phone or other equipment
reading, or looking at a map
talking to and looking at a passenger
lighting a cigarette, changing a CD or tape, tuning the radio.
What is 'Careless or inconsiderate driving'?
A person drives carelessly or inconsiderately when the way they drive falls below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver.
Some examples of careless driving are:
overtaking on the inside;
driving too close to another vehicle;
driving through a red light by mistake;
turning into the path of another vehicle;
the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
Examples of inconsiderate driving include:
flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights."
Edited by paintman on Wednesday 15th October 19:36
I'd say it was a nailed on certainty for Dangerous driving due to "overtaking dangerously", in that his overtake almost took me off.
Could also add "driving aggressively", which gives two in the Dangerous Driving definition.
This wasn't a fun encounter - I was genuinely in fear of my life as he turned in to me.
I could barely speak when I caught up to him, such was the shock and adrenalin.
I got the name of the park wrong when reporting it to the Police operator, and I've lived here for years.
Could also add "driving aggressively", which gives two in the Dangerous Driving definition.
This wasn't a fun encounter - I was genuinely in fear of my life as he turned in to me.
I could barely speak when I caught up to him, such was the shock and adrenalin.
I got the name of the park wrong when reporting it to the Police operator, and I've lived here for years.
I've just read your OP - again - and you say 'A chap in a Southern Gas Networks van tried to knock me off on my way home'.
And in your last post 'I was genuinely in fear of my life'
Sounds to me you consider his actions to be a deliberate attempt which would take it out of the realms of driving offences.
Perhaps we should consider attempted murder?
And in your last post 'I was genuinely in fear of my life'
Sounds to me you consider his actions to be a deliberate attempt which would take it out of the realms of driving offences.
Perhaps we should consider attempted murder?
Mound Dawg said:
ging84 said:
you got cut up by a van
this is happening hundreds of times an hour up and down the country, to cars, motorbikes and cyclists, just because 1 road user has to act to avoid another does not automatically make it dangerous driving.
Quite. this is happening hundreds of times an hour up and down the country, to cars, motorbikes and cyclists, just because 1 road user has to act to avoid another does not automatically make it dangerous driving.
It happened twice to me on the way to work this morning on the M4.
Being cut up in a car is infuriating but unlikely to lead to anything worse than several tedious hours dealing with insurance companies.
Deliberately driving at someone whilst vulnerable on a bike is a whole different level of scum.
It doesn't really matter at this stage as, as pointed out by MK3Spitfire, and as I originally thought, the Police will take this nowhere due to lack of witnesses.
Again, as pointed out, a camera is basically becoming inevitable in order to have some chance at redress in these situations.
Hey ho, it's a real pity that we've got to here, but c'est la vie I guess.
Again, as pointed out, a camera is basically becoming inevitable in order to have some chance at redress in these situations.
Hey ho, it's a real pity that we've got to here, but c'est la vie I guess.
Dammit said:
Hey ho, it's a real pity that we've got to here, but c'est la vie I guess.
I totally agree. One of the main problems is the lack of police patrols. Speed & traffic light cameras are all very well - when used appropriately - but they don't detect bad driving.
When I joined the job - late 70's - we had the time to patrol. By the end of my service it had become a progression from job to job to job & little or no opportunity to sit up & observe. Unless police numbers are dramatically increased - and I can't see this happening - this is not going to get any better.
k right off, frankly. What the fmdavids said:
He didn't get "cut up", he got a "punishment pass" for having the audacity to hold up a very important gas man for probably a few seconds.
Being cut up in a car is infuriating but unlikely to lead to anything worse than several tedious hours dealing with insurance companies.
Deliberately driving at someone whilst vulnerable on a bike is a whole different level of scum.
I think I've found your witnessBeing cut up in a car is infuriating but unlikely to lead to anything worse than several tedious hours dealing with insurance companies.
Deliberately driving at someone whilst vulnerable on a bike is a whole different level of scum.
ging84 said:
mdavids said:
He didn't get "cut up", he got a "punishment pass" for having the audacity to hold up a very important gas man for probably a few seconds.
Being cut up in a car is infuriating but unlikely to lead to anything worse than several tedious hours dealing with insurance companies.
Deliberately driving at someone whilst vulnerable on a bike is a whole different level of scum.
I think I've found your witnessBeing cut up in a car is infuriating but unlikely to lead to anything worse than several tedious hours dealing with insurance companies.
Deliberately driving at someone whilst vulnerable on a bike is a whole different level of scum.
paintman said:
Given the circumstances in your original post I also go for 'Careless or Inconsiderate driving' as opposed to 'dangerous driving'. Based on the advice given by the CPS in:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/dangerous_d...
"What is 'Dangerous driving'?
A person drives dangerously when:
the way they drive falls far below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver; and
it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.
Some typical examples from court cases of dangerous driving are:
racing, going too fast, or driving aggressively;
ignoring traffic lights, road signs or warnings from passengers;
overtaking dangerously;
driving under the influence of drink or drugs, including prescription drugs;
driving when unfit, including having an injury, being unable to see clearly, not taking prescribed drugs, or being sleepy;
knowing the vehicle has a dangerous fault or an unsafe load;
the driver being avoidably and dangerously distracted, for example by:
using a hand-held phone or other equipment
reading, or looking at a map
talking to and looking at a passenger
lighting a cigarette, changing a CD or tape, tuning the radio.
What is 'Careless or inconsiderate driving'?
A person drives carelessly or inconsiderately when the way they drive falls below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver.
Some examples of careless driving are:
overtaking on the inside;
driving too close to another vehicle;
driving through a red light by mistake;
turning into the path of another vehicle;
the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
Examples of inconsiderate driving include:
flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights."
To me, Dangerous driving in the definitions above boils down to whether the action is taken as deliberate or not - i.e. IF (and it is an IF, as we do not know for cetain what the driver was doing) it was a deliberate move to knock off the cyclist, then that would be dangerous. If however, it was poor driving but with no intent, that is 'Careless'. When I was knocked off last year, the driver got a careless driving charge, (or drivng wihtout due care or whatever) - in my mind, because no deliberate act was involved, he just didn't see me. http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/dangerous_d...
"What is 'Dangerous driving'?
A person drives dangerously when:
the way they drive falls far below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver; and
it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.
Some typical examples from court cases of dangerous driving are:
racing, going too fast, or driving aggressively;
ignoring traffic lights, road signs or warnings from passengers;
overtaking dangerously;
driving under the influence of drink or drugs, including prescription drugs;
driving when unfit, including having an injury, being unable to see clearly, not taking prescribed drugs, or being sleepy;
knowing the vehicle has a dangerous fault or an unsafe load;
the driver being avoidably and dangerously distracted, for example by:
using a hand-held phone or other equipment
reading, or looking at a map
talking to and looking at a passenger
lighting a cigarette, changing a CD or tape, tuning the radio.
What is 'Careless or inconsiderate driving'?
A person drives carelessly or inconsiderately when the way they drive falls below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver.
Some examples of careless driving are:
overtaking on the inside;
driving too close to another vehicle;
driving through a red light by mistake;
turning into the path of another vehicle;
the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
Examples of inconsiderate driving include:
flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights."
Edited by paintman on Wednesday 15th October 19:36
Had an 'chat' with a car driver at the weekend, who came past me with less than 18" grace, had a word at the next set of lights "I was on a blind bend" - erm yes, and you should have waited until good visibility to perform the overtake - a shake of hands and off we went - in my opinion - inconsiderate driving. Drivers who don't also cycle really dont get it sometimes.
My other normal argument, was that if I'd been riding a horse, I bet he would have waited, but hey, just a human on a bike...
I wonder though, under the circumstances where in that bike accident the other week, where the motor biker was killed after smashing a car that didn't see him, was that death by dangerous drivng, or death by careless driving, if the latter even exists as an offence?
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