Speeding Does Not Cause Accidents
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
Stroll on, post and source equally fallacious.
The child mortality figure is high across the bard. Here' a piece on the subject that doesn't even mention road safety: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-27260371
And speaking as someone who won't cycle in the uk, the idea that speeding drivers puts me off is a total lie - traffic in the uk crawls along, it's very difficult to go anywhere quickly in daylight hours without going somewhere remote.
The reason people won't cycle or walk is because we provide as little facilities to do so as is possible in a modern society. Instead our govts prefer to cram the roads with cars so they can tax the s
t out of .
If you take another look at my post you'll see I made no claims about why you personally don't cycle. I said people in the UK Don't cycle cos speedophiles bully them off the roads:The child mortality figure is high across the bard. Here' a piece on the subject that doesn't even mention road safety: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-27260371
And speaking as someone who won't cycle in the uk, the idea that speeding drivers puts me off is a total lie - traffic in the uk crawls along, it's very difficult to go anywhere quickly in daylight hours without going somewhere remote.
The reason people won't cycle or walk is because we provide as little facilities to do so as is possible in a modern society. Instead our govts prefer to cram the roads with cars so they can tax the s
t out of .http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28093374
Roads 'too dangerous' for cyclists BBC poll suggests.
heebeegeetee said:
Stroll on, post and source equally fallacious.
The child mortality figure is high across the bard. Here' a piece on the subject that doesn't even mention road safety: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-27260371
).
You deny the UK has one of the worst child fatality rates in Europe on the roads? The child mortality figure is high across the bard. Here' a piece on the subject that doesn't even mention road safety: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-27260371
).
OTBC said:
First you claimed you hadn't seen evidence that lower limits save lives, now you say the evidence is too old. In what way does that make the research invalid or flawed, do you think?
Do you dispute the fact that speeding drivers kill more children than paedophiles do, by a large magnitude?
IIRC you said 8 children are killed by paedophiles each year, and 6,000 children die overall each year, there's a hell of a lot of people in our society worse than paedophiles. Our child mortality rate compares with Serbia, so we are letting almost all of these children die out of choice.Do you dispute the fact that speeding drivers kill more children than paedophiles do, by a large magnitude?
It just so happens I read an account of the harrowing death of Lesley Anne Downey last weekend. How you know what is worse or not than that I don't know, but I'd suggest wait and see if your child dies like before deciding what is worse than peadophila or not.
Luckily such deaths are extremely rare, which makes road deaths less rare than extremely rare cases.
OTBC said:
You deny the UK has one of the worst child fatality rates in Europe on the roads?
It has amongst the worst child fatality rates in Europe full stop. Why confine the issue to road safety? If you're genuinely interested in saving the lives of children you would look elsewhere.heebeegeetee said:
OTBC said:
You deny the UK has one of the worst child fatality rates in Europe on the roads?
It has amongst the worst child fatality rates in Europe full stop. Why confine the issue to road safety? If you're genuinely interested in saving the lives of children you would look elsewhere.This link shows all causes of deaths in the UK...
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jan/...
All transport deaths being from what I can make out something like 0.4% of the bigger picture.... (with 40 of those being air transport and 35 of those being train related).
With speeding being a factor in around 12% of those fatalities then this works out to be around 0.05% of all fatalities in the UK.
In the grand scheme of things 'speeding' deaths don't really affect 'that' many people. It is very much over-hyped in the UK and the attention and measures spent in my view is disproportionate to the intended result of reducing that 0.05% down to 0%.
But that is not to say that as a responsible society that we do not need speed limits. Of course we do. But we don't need limits under the mantra that "speed kills", rather that excessive speed in certain conditions/environments can be dangerous and can raises the risk of accidents due to factors that originate from higher speeds. (Not simply that 30mph is safe and 31mph is not safe as many have eluded to by simply quoting the black and white nature of road law).
Because this black and white nature of viewing speed limits under the "speed kills" mantra is resulting in many inappropriate reductions in limits across the country which is tipping the balance of "efficient transport vs effective safety" in the wrong direction unnecessarily.
(Just my own opinion of course)
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jan/...
All transport deaths being from what I can make out something like 0.4% of the bigger picture.... (with 40 of those being air transport and 35 of those being train related).
With speeding being a factor in around 12% of those fatalities then this works out to be around 0.05% of all fatalities in the UK.
In the grand scheme of things 'speeding' deaths don't really affect 'that' many people. It is very much over-hyped in the UK and the attention and measures spent in my view is disproportionate to the intended result of reducing that 0.05% down to 0%.
But that is not to say that as a responsible society that we do not need speed limits. Of course we do. But we don't need limits under the mantra that "speed kills", rather that excessive speed in certain conditions/environments can be dangerous and can raises the risk of accidents due to factors that originate from higher speeds. (Not simply that 30mph is safe and 31mph is not safe as many have eluded to by simply quoting the black and white nature of road law).
Because this black and white nature of viewing speed limits under the "speed kills" mantra is resulting in many inappropriate reductions in limits across the country which is tipping the balance of "efficient transport vs effective safety" in the wrong direction unnecessarily.
(Just my own opinion of course)
Edited by AA999 on Tuesday 28th October 11:45
OTBC said:
First you claimed you hadn't seen evidence that lower limits save lives, now you say the evidence is too old. In what way does that make the research invalid or flawed, do you think?
Do you dispute the fact that speeding drivers kill more children than paedophiles do, by a large magnitude?
I said I hadn't seen any recent evidence, and you still haven't provided any. I also find your comparison between children killed by paedophiles and those killed on the roads slightly bizarre. I fail to see the connection between children killed by mentally ill people who go out especially to harm children, to those killed in an accident. However I expect nothing less from the BRAKE lot...Do you dispute the fact that speeding drivers kill more children than paedophiles do, by a large magnitude?
AA999 said:
But if you wish to bring it out of the playground then happy to discuss.
There's nothing to discuss. By all means make assertions about your own position, but it's pointless making assertions about the position of your opponents especially if those assertions are simply not true.No-one has ever asserted that staying within the speed limit means automatic safety. So why keep insisting that they have? The discussion can't proceed while you persist with that .
singlecoil said:
heebeegeetee said:
OTBC said:
You deny the UK has one of the worst child fatality rates in Europe on the roads?
It has amongst the worst child fatality rates in Europe full stop. Why confine the issue to road safety? If you're genuinely interested in saving the lives of children you would look elsewhere.It's true that lots of children die. The cause are myriad. Suicide, cancer, falls at home, malaria, stabbing and shootings. My point is that it makes sense to focus on the leading global cause of premature death for children. Motor traffic.
The other causes of death are fascinating and deserve their own thread, this thread is about the role of speeding in RTCs.
We know that collisions are reduced by up to forty per cent in twenty zones, I've yet to hear a compelling argument why ignoring the speed limit has benefits that outweigh the negative impacts. Dead children. And it's vital to remember that filled coffins are by no means the sole negative impact, speeding traffic deters walking and cycling rates, bullies vulnerable road users and depresses alternatives to the car, the main reason why we lead Europe in obesity levels with an attendant enormous burden on health provision.
The other causes of death are fascinating and deserve their own thread, this thread is about the role of speeding in RTCs.
We know that collisions are reduced by up to forty per cent in twenty zones, I've yet to hear a compelling argument why ignoring the speed limit has benefits that outweigh the negative impacts. Dead children. And it's vital to remember that filled coffins are by no means the sole negative impact, speeding traffic deters walking and cycling rates, bullies vulnerable road users and depresses alternatives to the car, the main reason why we lead Europe in obesity levels with an attendant enormous burden on health provision.
TankRizzo said:
No, it's because they're inherently lazy and would rather drive 3 miles in a warm car than get on a bike.
Not that that will fit your massively chippy anti-car cyclonutter ravings.
That's not what the research I linked to says. People would love to be able to cycle, but idiots using public roads as their very own racetrack has a massive disincentive affect. Can you try to avoid personal insults?Not that that will fit your massively chippy anti-car cyclonutter ravings.
OTBC said:
It's true that lots of children die. The cause are myriad. Suicide, cancer, falls at home, malaria, stabbing and shootings. My point is that it makes sense to focus on the leading global cause of premature death for children. Motor traffic.
The other causes of death are fascinating and deserve their own thread, this thread is about the role of speeding in RTCs.
We know that collisions are reduced by up to forty per cent in twenty zones, I've yet to hear a compelling argument why ignoring the speed limit has benefits that outweigh the negative impacts. Dead children. And it's vital to remember that filled coffins are by no means the sole negative impact, speeding traffic deters walking and cycling rates, bullies vulnerable road users and depresses alternatives to the car, the main reason why we lead Europe in obesity levels with an attendant enormous burden on health provision.
I'm sorry, but you are getting more and more ridiculous.The other causes of death are fascinating and deserve their own thread, this thread is about the role of speeding in RTCs.
We know that collisions are reduced by up to forty per cent in twenty zones, I've yet to hear a compelling argument why ignoring the speed limit has benefits that outweigh the negative impacts. Dead children. And it's vital to remember that filled coffins are by no means the sole negative impact, speeding traffic deters walking and cycling rates, bullies vulnerable road users and depresses alternatives to the car, the main reason why we lead Europe in obesity levels with an attendant enormous burden on health provision.
The report says:
Pedestrians, cyclists, and users of other modes of transport that involve physical activity need the highest priority when developing or maintaining streets and roads. This can mean re-allocation of road space to support walking and cycling; restricting motor vehicle access; introducing road-user charging and traffic-calming schemes; and creating create safe routes to schools.
Such changes have prompted substantial shifts from car transport to walking and cycling.
http://road.cc/content/news/133785-get-people-cycl...
“With health costs rising due to increasingly sedentary life styles, getting more people cycling is an easy win. If we increased cycling to German levels by 2025, as recommended by the Get Britain Cycling report, CTC led research calculates the NHS could benefit by £6bn annually.
Pedestrians, cyclists, and users of other modes of transport that involve physical activity need the highest priority when developing or maintaining streets and roads. This can mean re-allocation of road space to support walking and cycling; restricting motor vehicle access; introducing road-user charging and traffic-calming schemes; and creating create safe routes to schools.
Such changes have prompted substantial shifts from car transport to walking and cycling.
http://road.cc/content/news/133785-get-people-cycl...
“With health costs rising due to increasingly sedentary life styles, getting more people cycling is an easy win. If we increased cycling to German levels by 2025, as recommended by the Get Britain Cycling report, CTC led research calculates the NHS could benefit by £6bn annually.
This is a great article on the efficacy of 20MPH zones.
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/mi...
Its so full of conflicting statements, the average speed has dropped from high 20s, to low 20s.
But according to the vox-pops at the bottom, no-one abides by the limits.
But the reduction in collisions is still lauded, even though it was the same the other non-20 roads in the area.
But if you look at the historic stats, 2012 was an outlying year for accidents, otherwise 2013 would be inline with reductions in the years before the 20 limits were introduced.
http://road-collisions.dft.gov.uk/lha/middlesbroug...
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/mi...
Its so full of conflicting statements, the average speed has dropped from high 20s, to low 20s.
But according to the vox-pops at the bottom, no-one abides by the limits.
But the reduction in collisions is still lauded, even though it was the same the other non-20 roads in the area.
But if you look at the historic stats, 2012 was an outlying year for accidents, otherwise 2013 would be inline with reductions in the years before the 20 limits were introduced.
http://road-collisions.dft.gov.uk/lha/middlesbroug...
tfa said:
Middlesbrough Council has now revealed that the number of recorded collisions on roads with 20mph zones has dropped 7% during the first 14 months.
However the authority has admitted that collisions across the wider borough have also fallen 7%.
However the authority has admitted that collisions across the wider borough have also fallen 7%.
tfa said:
Speeds fell at 21 out of 23 sites surveyed, with a maximum fall of 5.9mph.
“A typical pattern was speeds falling from the high 20s to the low 20mph,” the report added.
“A typical pattern was speeds falling from the high 20s to the low 20mph,” the report added.
Philomena Cunk said:
Marton resident Philomena Ruddock, 64, who lives on Normanby Court, said she feels she “is always looking behind her” when walking down Gunnergate Lane because of speeding drivers.
“The 20mph limit has its advantages but I have got to say no one sticks to it,” Miss Ruddock said.
“It’s all right the council setting up these fancy cameras along the roads but what is the point in them being there if they are just ignored?
“When I walk down Gunnergate to catch the bus I feel nervous because of how tight the road is, and the speed of cars on top of that. It can get dangerous.
“They would have been better keeping it at 30mph, at least people know that is a safe speed to drive at.”
So when it was 30 they weren't speeding, now its 20, they are!“The 20mph limit has its advantages but I have got to say no one sticks to it,” Miss Ruddock said.
“It’s all right the council setting up these fancy cameras along the roads but what is the point in them being there if they are just ignored?
“When I walk down Gunnergate to catch the bus I feel nervous because of how tight the road is, and the speed of cars on top of that. It can get dangerous.
“They would have been better keeping it at 30mph, at least people know that is a safe speed to drive at.”
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