Speeding Does Not Cause Accidents
Discussion
singlecoil said:
I've never been to the Isle of Man, what's the motorway network like, and do people tend to do journeys of a couple of hundred miles or so?
There is no motorway network - and journeys of a couple of hundred miles are probably uncommon given the island is only 33 miles long.They did do a similar study in Germany on the unrestricted Autobahns in 1992 (average speed 75mph, 85th percentile 92mph). I'm sure most German cars in 1992 were capable of much higher speeds than 92mph - yet the majority didn't appear to exercise this option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#Travel_speed...
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 2nd November 16:02
Moonhawk said:
singlecoil said:
I've never been to the Isle of Man, what's the motorway network like, and do people tend to do journeys of a couple of hundred miles or so?
There is no motorway network - and journeys of a couple of hundred miles are probably uncommon given the island is only 33 miles long.
Thank you for making my point for me.
See if you can come up with a better example next time
singlecoil said:
Thank you for making my point for me.
See if you can come up with a better example next time
As for a 'better example' - take a look at the link in my edit - similar study done on German autobahns.
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 2nd November 16:12
singlecoil said:
Perhaps you think it is just coincidence that the faster drivers on the motorway all go at around 80-85, maybe even 90? Funny that, all those people making the same choice about a suitable speed, even the ones with cars that can do a LOT more.
Anyone who shares the opinion that I am entitled to (thanks for that, BTW) will be thinking that yes, such speeds are the ones they reckon they can get away with. Even if they do get caught it will only be a fine and points.
Are you perhaps judging others by your own standards?Anyone who shares the opinion that I am entitled to (thanks for that, BTW) will be thinking that yes, such speeds are the ones they reckon they can get away with. Even if they do get caught it will only be a fine and points.
Or is it that you reckon that everyone else would do what you wouldn't?
singlecoil said:
Petrol is cheaper than time, and driving faster to save time is what people will do if they can get away with it.
That's a pathetic argument, especially considering that most people, including me, get paid the same regardless of how much time they take on the road.Moonhawk said:
There is no motorway network - and journeys of a couple of hundred miles are probably uncommon given the island is only 33 miles long.
They did do a similar study in Germany on the unrestricted Autobahns in 1992 (average speed 75mph, 85th percentile 92mph). I'm sure most German cars in 1992 were capable of much higher speeds than 92mph - yet the majority didn't appear to exercise this option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#Travel_speed...
This is interesting, but I'd point out that the Berlin wall fell in 1989, so whilst a lot of the cars could probably have exceeded 92mph an awful lot of Trabants, freshly released onto the West German road network, couldn't exceed 50mph (without blowing into smithereens).They did do a similar study in Germany on the unrestricted Autobahns in 1992 (average speed 75mph, 85th percentile 92mph). I'm sure most German cars in 1992 were capable of much higher speeds than 92mph - yet the majority didn't appear to exercise this option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#Travel_speed...
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 2nd November 16:02
I drove in Germany a few months ago, for the first time on some unrestricted autobahns. There was no anarchy, no blood trickling along the gutters. Instead, progress was swift and manners were excellent. I'd say the average speed was around 80 to 90. People allowed to use their own discretion, it was a great breath of fresh air, no worried glances at the speedometer, checking for speed traps, no lane hogs to 70 in the outside lane and no frightened drivers creeping past others at 1mph differential. Perfect, no fuss.
Dammit said:
This is interesting, but I'd point out that the Berlin wall fell in 1989, so whilst a lot of the cars could probably have exceeded 92mph an awful lot of Trabants, freshly released onto the West German road network, couldn't exceed 50mph (without blowing into smithereens).
A little further down in the same section are results from a study in 2006 - and whilst the speeds have clearly increased overall (understandable given the capabilities of modern cars) - the results still don't support the assertion that the majority are pushing their vehicles to anywhere near the maximum they can "get away with". The average speed recorded was 88mph whilst the 85th percentile was 105mph.The vast majority of drivers are still setting self imposed limits on the speed at which they drive despite the fact that they could "get away with" much higher speeds.
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 2nd November 17:44
I wonder what percentage of the Autobahns are derestricted, and free from road-works?
When I drove through Germany last my abiding memories are of lots of lane closures, speed limited sections (with wooden fencing on either side), then you get to the de-restricted section and decide to give it the beans - at which point a Polish lorry pulls out in front of you and you have to make the car stand on it's nose.
I had thought that what would make the biggest impression on me was the power of the car - it wasn't that, in the end, it was the brakes.
Still, it was fun shooting along when it was possible - but that was infrequent.
I'd say that you could happily yo-yo up and down, with gaps in the traffic, maybe reaching 120-130 before having to back off again, but that your figure of 88mph is very believable.
I came back via France, pegged the cruise control to 130km/h and the journey was a) faster than via Germany, b) and I used 1.5 fewer tanks of petrol.
When I drove through Germany last my abiding memories are of lots of lane closures, speed limited sections (with wooden fencing on either side), then you get to the de-restricted section and decide to give it the beans - at which point a Polish lorry pulls out in front of you and you have to make the car stand on it's nose.
I had thought that what would make the biggest impression on me was the power of the car - it wasn't that, in the end, it was the brakes.
Still, it was fun shooting along when it was possible - but that was infrequent.
I'd say that you could happily yo-yo up and down, with gaps in the traffic, maybe reaching 120-130 before having to back off again, but that your figure of 88mph is very believable.
I came back via France, pegged the cruise control to 130km/h and the journey was a) faster than via Germany, b) and I used 1.5 fewer tanks of petrol.
Dammit said:
I wonder what percentage of the Autobahns are derestricted, and free from road-works?
When I drove through Germany last my abiding memories are of lots of lane closures, speed limited sections (with wooden fencing on either side), then you get to the de-restricted section and decide to give it the beans - at which point a Polish lorry pulls out in front of you and you have to make the car stand on it's nose.
I had thought that what would make the biggest impression on me was the power of the car - it wasn't that, in the end, it was the brakes.
Still, it was fun shooting along when it was possible - but that was infrequent.
I'd say that you could happily yo-yo up and down, with gaps in the traffic, maybe reaching 120-130 before having to back off again, but that your figure of 88mph is very believable.
I came back via France, pegged the cruise control to 130km/h and the journey was a) faster than via Germany, b) and I used 1.5 fewer tanks of petrol.
That's pretty much what I thought it would be, really nothing to do with people observing self-imposed limits.When I drove through Germany last my abiding memories are of lots of lane closures, speed limited sections (with wooden fencing on either side), then you get to the de-restricted section and decide to give it the beans - at which point a Polish lorry pulls out in front of you and you have to make the car stand on it's nose.
I had thought that what would make the biggest impression on me was the power of the car - it wasn't that, in the end, it was the brakes.
Still, it was fun shooting along when it was possible - but that was infrequent.
I'd say that you could happily yo-yo up and down, with gaps in the traffic, maybe reaching 120-130 before having to back off again, but that your figure of 88mph is very believable.
I came back via France, pegged the cruise control to 130km/h and the journey was a) faster than via Germany, b) and I used 1.5 fewer tanks of petrol.
TankRizzo said:
singlecoil said:
Wrong.
Most people, especially on motorways, will, by and large, drive at whatever speed they think they can get away with.
If that were the case then most people on derestricted autobahns would drive with their foot to the boards.Most people, especially on motorways, will, by and large, drive at whatever speed they think they can get away with.
They don't. Your view is wrong.
Blakewater said:
stag14 said:
im missing the point here chaps, speed limits are the law so if drivers don't want to abide by them don't drive a car - use public transport.
Speed cameras are positioned to enforce the speed limit, albeit they may be revenue spinners but if d
heads did not break the speed limit they would not be required....
the facts as i see them, decide which category you fall into....
)
Simply saying the law is the law and we must all abide by it is a dangerous road to go down. Lower speed limits are pretty insignificant on the whole but groups of people being whipped up to support laws without researching them and questioning whether or not they're benefiting society has proved dangerous in the past and arguably still is now in some respects here and in other countries.Speed cameras are positioned to enforce the speed limit, albeit they may be revenue spinners but if d
heads did not break the speed limit they would not be required....the facts as i see them, decide which category you fall into....
)The IAM have carried out research on the effectiveness of 20mph limits and have found accident rates are increasing in them and they're not a bunch of loons or a lonely man in a shed with a speed over safety agenda.
http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/3716.html
Rod King has a point that more 20mph limits may mean more casualties in 20mph limits but that still means cutting the speed limits isn't succeeding in cutting the casualties within them.
Here's an example of where a huge majority of people used the democratic process to object to 20mph limits on cost and effectiveness grounds only for the council to press ahead with them anyway.
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10543389.7_out_of_...
An IAM survey has found the majority of people are against 20mph limits.
http://www.iam.org.uk/media-and-research/research/...
As it's probably IAM members answering it's people who care about safe driving giving their opinions.
Travel on any road where speed limits have recently been cut since local authorities took control of them and you see that few people, free of the restraints of those who do abide by them, exceed them. It only takes one driver sticking to the limit to mean everybody behind is sticking to it until they take a risk to overtake. One of the reasons cited in Denmark for the increase in the national speed limit on single carriageway roads reducing accident rates is a reduction in overtaking.
http://cars.aol.co.uk/2014/02/24/danish-road-exper...
Rising numbers of speeding prosecutions also show many people choose to exceed speed limits. Even "steady" drivers like my mother complain the situation with low limits and more speed traps is getting silly.
the law is the law, made generally on educated advice from experts in the respective field.... so just abide by it.
Everyone has an anicdotial story about the best driver in the world being aware if the road ... blah blah blah, the IAM this that and the other... blah blah blah.....
The sooner we understand we are all pretty rubbish drivers on the limit compared to real experts and are all accidents waiting to happen so keep to the speed limits...... its the minority of good drivers who kill on the road and the majority who are idiots causing heartache to others... decide which group you sit in, i have a good idea.
Have a read of this post by a long term member of the forum who's a former police driving instructor. It's all useful if you're interested but part way down he covers the issue of driving very fast on the motorway. The point he makes is a very important and valid one. Driving fast is only really exciting to us, assuming we do find it exciting, because we can very rarely do it. If we do it on a German autobahn it's a novelty, if we have a quick blast on a quiet empty UK motorway there's a certain giggly excitement about breaking the law and sticking it to The Man. If you can do it all the time it's not really that exciting, it's tiring and it drains your fuel and you'll probably run out of bottle before sustaining any seriously high speeds. Should speed limits be removed tomorrow you may think you'll drive everywhere at 200mph forevermore. Chances are, after a couple of quick high speed runs, you'll carry on at the 80mph to 90mph you do now.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The reduction of road casualties in the 1970s was probably a lot to do with a rapid increase in the motorway network and more journeys being made by motorway rather than ordinary roads.
At one time I used to have absolute respect for speed limits because they were pretty much always about right, just like I always believed traffic wardens were legitimately ensuring people parked properly and paid fairly for parking. It always used to be the case. Now cutting speed limits seems to be the answer to every accident and the mark of every councillor trying to make an impact even if there's no actual problem to fix. People ask sarcastically why they aren't cut further if speed kills and people who are for cutting limits say that's a silly argument, but then the limits are cut again. A few years ago 20mph limits and the 30mph and 40mph limits we have on some major roads now would have been dismissed as a silly. When something starts to have a constant negative impact on ordinary, sensible people going about their business and it's perceived someone else is making money out of it they don't tolerate it. Politics seems to be going ever more right wing these days as people rebel against what they perceive to be attacks on them to make money in the name of political correctness, environmentalism or safety in order to make those who object to it look bad. We may see a swing towards higher speed limits and less focus on money and police time being spent enforcing them in the future.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The reduction of road casualties in the 1970s was probably a lot to do with a rapid increase in the motorway network and more journeys being made by motorway rather than ordinary roads.
At one time I used to have absolute respect for speed limits because they were pretty much always about right, just like I always believed traffic wardens were legitimately ensuring people parked properly and paid fairly for parking. It always used to be the case. Now cutting speed limits seems to be the answer to every accident and the mark of every councillor trying to make an impact even if there's no actual problem to fix. People ask sarcastically why they aren't cut further if speed kills and people who are for cutting limits say that's a silly argument, but then the limits are cut again. A few years ago 20mph limits and the 30mph and 40mph limits we have on some major roads now would have been dismissed as a silly. When something starts to have a constant negative impact on ordinary, sensible people going about their business and it's perceived someone else is making money out of it they don't tolerate it. Politics seems to be going ever more right wing these days as people rebel against what they perceive to be attacks on them to make money in the name of political correctness, environmentalism or safety in order to make those who object to it look bad. We may see a swing towards higher speed limits and less focus on money and police time being spent enforcing them in the future.
Blakewater said:
We may see a swing towards higher speed limits and less focus on money and police time being spent enforcing them in the future.
I think the chance of that is about the same as the chance of them bringing back capital punishment, IOW, it's theoretically possible, but not very likely, if I may say that in a classically English understatement kind of a way.singlecoil said:
Or has the bks about speed limit enforcement being all about the money finally been seen to be the bks that it always has been?
It's not purely about revenue- there's also people in this world who unswervingly believe that slower is better as opposed to using speed appropriate for the conditions.ks about speed limit enforcement being all about the money finally been seen to be the bks that it always has been? singlecoil said:
Blakewater said:
We may see a swing towards higher speed limits and less focus on money and police time being spent enforcing them in the future.
I think the chance of that is about the same as the chance of them bringing back capital punishment, IOW, it's theoretically possible, but not very likely, if I may say that in a classically English understatement kind of a way.http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/capita...
My point is, speed limit setting is as much, if not more, a political thing than a direct safety related thing. National government devolved powers of speed limit setting on most roads to local authorities, along with many other powers, a few years ago. Local councilors and local MPs get speed limits cut to show they're doing something about road safety and cutting speed limits, while perhaps putting in traffic calming measures, is a quick and visible gesture and pretty much all they can think to do. For years, when there was an accident, people would shout that it must be down to speed because they'd seen someone driving a bit quickly along that road the week before but they were told that the speed limit wouldn't be cut because there hadn't been enough speed related accidents on that section of road. The people who knew what they were talking about, as described in the post above, wouldn't do it. Now the local authority will cut the limit just to win votes and pacify the people making a noise that they want it. Those who are making the most noise may not be the majority of the people though as most people don't really get involved in campaigning for things.
Dammit said:
This is interesting, but I'd point out that the Berlin wall fell in 1989, so whilst a lot of the cars could probably have exceeded 92mph an awful lot of Trabants, freshly released onto the West German road network, couldn't exceed 50mph (without blowing into smithereens).
Dear god, what the hell are you on about now?heebeegeetee said:
Dammit said:
This is interesting, but I'd point out that the Berlin wall fell in 1989, so whilst a lot of the cars could probably have exceeded 92mph an awful lot of Trabants, freshly released onto the West German road network, couldn't exceed 50mph (without blowing into smithereens).
Dear god, what the hell are you on about now?I'm glad to have been of assistance.
singlecoil said:
He is on about the fact that the average speed figures would have been lowered by the large number of cars that would not have been able to drive very quickly without breaking down.
I'm glad to have been of assistance.
I was afraid he might - or he was just joking.I'm glad to have been of assistance.
But the average speeds of German autobahns reduced because for years because they were full of Trabants?
Yeah right.
heebeegeetee said:
singlecoil said:
He is on about the fact that the average speed figures would have been lowered by the large number of cars that would not have been able to drive very quickly without breaking down.
I'm glad to have been of assistance.
I was afraid he might - or he was just joking.I'm glad to have been of assistance.
But the average speeds of German autobahns reduced because for years because they were full of Trabants?
Yeah right.
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