Overtaking on zig-zags
Discussion
Actually I had seen that bit of legislation before.
However what I am not sure of is if "vehicle" includes pedal cycle or if it refers to motor vehicles.
ie
24. (1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the VEHICLE shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or
(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26.
Does the VEHICLE which I have made caps include bicycles?
However what I am not sure of is if "vehicle" includes pedal cycle or if it refers to motor vehicles.
ie
24. (1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the VEHICLE shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or
(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26.
Does the VEHICLE which I have made caps include bicycles?
Or to be more specific, Part IV, Regulation 20 excludes pedal cycles from the definition of "vehicle"
"Prohibition against the stopping of vehicles in controlled areas
20. (1) For the purposes of this regulation and regulations 21 and 22 the word “vehicle” shall not include a pedal bicycle not having a sidecar attached to it, whether or not additional means of propulsion by mechanical power are attached to the bicycle.
(2) Except as provided in regulations 21 and 22 the driver of a vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it to stop in a controlled area.
"
But my reading of that is that is applies to Regulations 20, 21 and 22. The bit about no overtaking is in Part IV, Regaulation 24. Therefore I think this applies also to pedal cycles, therefore pedal cycles may not overtake.
Is my interpretation correct?
"Prohibition against the stopping of vehicles in controlled areas
20. (1) For the purposes of this regulation and regulations 21 and 22 the word “vehicle” shall not include a pedal bicycle not having a sidecar attached to it, whether or not additional means of propulsion by mechanical power are attached to the bicycle.
(2) Except as provided in regulations 21 and 22 the driver of a vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it to stop in a controlled area.
"
But my reading of that is that is applies to Regulations 20, 21 and 22. The bit about no overtaking is in Part IV, Regaulation 24. Therefore I think this applies also to pedal cycles, therefore pedal cycles may not overtake.
Is my interpretation correct?
Red Devil said:
No. Regulation 24 specfically states 'motor vehicle'. A pedal cycle isn't one.
It doesn't absolve the rider from giving way to a pedestrian on the crossing though.
Reg 24 refers to a "vehicle" (not motor vehicle) passing a "motor vehicle"It doesn't absolve the rider from giving way to a pedestrian on the crossing though.
My reading is therefore that "vehicle" includes pedal cycles.
To requote from above: "Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or
(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26."
I'm having an argument with a cyclist on another forum. This is important, dammit!!!
creampuff said:
Actually I had seen that bit of legislation before.
However what I am not sure of is if "vehicle" includes pedal cycle or if it refers to motor vehicles.
ie
24. (1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the VEHICLE shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or
(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26.
Does the VEHICLE which I have made caps include bicycles?
No.However what I am not sure of is if "vehicle" includes pedal cycle or if it refers to motor vehicles.
ie
24. (1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the VEHICLE shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or
(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26.
Does the VEHICLE which I have made caps include bicycles?
The subject of section 24 is a "motor vehicle".
You can see that the "motor vehicle" is later referred to as “the approaching vehicle” and the "VEHICLE"; it is all the same "motor vehicle"
So if you are arguing that the legislation applies to a pedal cycle you should go onto the cycling forum and admit you are wrong.
creampuff said:
Actually I had seen that bit of legislation before.
However what I am not sure of is if "vehicle" includes pedal cycle or if it refers to motor vehicles.
ie
24. (1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the VEHICLE shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or
(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26.
Does the VEHICLE which I have made caps include bicycles?
No. The second use of the word vehicle which you have capitalised refers to the motor vehicle near the start of the sentence. If you cut the sentence down to the bare minimum it is obvious:However what I am not sure of is if "vehicle" includes pedal cycle or if it refers to motor vehicles.
ie
24. (1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the VEHICLE shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or
(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26.
Does the VEHICLE which I have made caps include bicycles?
"Whilst any motor vehicle is within the limits of a controlled area, the driver of the vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it—"
BTW, pointless arguing with cyclists, they are never wrong. Especially when they are.
Mr2Mike said:
BTW, pointless arguing with cyclists, they are never wrong. Especially when they are.
Oh the irony when just about every topic on PH, by car owners with car owners, argue, fight and curse each other because they are never wrong, especially when they are!OP, whilst the answer is the "no overtaking" is not applicable to cyclists for reasons stated above, they still have a duty of care to proceed in a safe manner.
What you should be asking is "is it illegal for motorcycles to overtake on the zigzags?" What they would refer to as "filtering".
sherbertdip said:
Oh the irony when just about every topic on PH, by car owners with car owners, argue, fight and curse each other because they are never wrong, especially when they are!
That is quite true in many cases, but you need to learn what 'irony' means because this isn't it. You might accuse me of "pot calling the kettle black"sherbertdip said:
What you should be asking is "is it illegal for motorcycles to overtake on the zigzags?" What they would refer to as "filtering".
Why should he be asking that? A motorcycle is clearly a motor vehicle.Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 20th October 12:03
Mr2Mike said:
sherbertdip said:
Oh the irony when just about every topic on PH, by car owners with car owners, argue, fight and curse each other because they are never wrong, especially when they are!
That is quite true in many cases, but you need to learn what 'irony' means because this isn't it. You might accuse me of "pot calling the kettle black"sherbertdip said:
What you should be asking is "is it illegal for motorcycles to overtake on the zigzags?" What they would refer to as "filtering".
Why should he be asking that? A motorcycle is clearly a motor vehicle.Corpulent Tosser said:
Does it really matter ?
If I am in a queue of cars waiting in the zigzag area and a cyclist rode up the inside of the queue to the front it really wouldn't concern me.
That's legal anyway even if a bike is a vehicle. "You MUST NOT overtake the ... vehicle nearest the crossing ...". So you can over/undertake vehicles on the zigzags up to the crossing.If I am in a queue of cars waiting in the zigzag area and a cyclist rode up the inside of the queue to the front it really wouldn't concern me.
creampuff said:
Red Devil said:
No. Regulation 24 specfically states 'motor vehicle'. A pedal cycle isn't one.
It doesn't absolve the rider from giving way to a pedestrian on the crossing though.
Reg 24 refers to a "vehicle" (not motor vehicle) passing a "motor vehicle"It doesn't absolve the rider from giving way to a pedestrian on the crossing though.
My reading is therefore that "vehicle" includes pedal cycles.
To requote from above: "Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or
(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26."
I'm having an argument with a cyclist on another forum. This is important, dammit!!!
But as mentioned above, the fact that the term "motor vehicle" is used at the start of the sentence means that the term "motor" is implicit in further uses of the word "vehicle" until otherwise described. You also didn't seem to have problem with the fact that in brackets it says "the approaching vehicle" and not "the approaching MOTOR vehicle".
Try it another way: You're describing an incident with a car.
"The red car drove along the road, and then a lorry pulled out in front of it causing the car to swerve and hit a lamp post". You didn't need to say "causing the RED car to swerve" because we already knew what you were talking about, as you had made that clear in your opening phrase.
Capisce?
Nimby said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
Does it really matter ?
If I am in a queue of cars waiting in the zigzag area and a cyclist rode up the inside of the queue to the front it really wouldn't concern me.
That's legal anyway even if a bike is a vehicle. "You MUST NOT overtake the ... vehicle nearest the crossing ...". So you can over/undertake vehicles on the zigzags up to the crossing.If I am in a queue of cars waiting in the zigzag area and a cyclist rode up the inside of the queue to the front it really wouldn't concern me.
24. (1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the VEHICLE shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction; or
(b)to pass ahead of the foremost part of a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26.
CAPP0 said:
Not sure if you're being serious or just having a day off school…..
Yeah actually I made the OP just before bed and did the replies after only 6 hours sleep. The meaning of the leglislation is clear now I've had a few cups of coffee. That will learn me for posting while sleepy 
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