Police and bad driving
Discussion
Eclassy said:
Another policeman on here has driven the roundabout in question and reckons it can be quite tricky but somehow you believe all police drivers are driving gods and anyone who questions their driving must be an idiot.
I think you're referring to me. I'm not police but ambulance. Same thing though....The junction is a very and busy one. You do need care. And for the record, if OP and the police car had collided, it would have been the Bibs fault: the joy of claiming exemptions, you have an accident, you are at fault.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/polic...
There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
DuckDuck said:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/polic...
There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
I'm somewhat baffled by why that case was brought. He plead guilty but got an absolute discharge.There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
DuckDuck said:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/polic...
There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
What a load of rubbish. Exceeded speed limit, "jumped" red light, drove on other side of carriageway...... all of which you can do when claiming exemptions. Forcing other drivers out the way.........well, yes......There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
DuckDuck said:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/polic...
There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
And what was the outcome of this catalogue of f**kwittery displayed? Yup you've guessed it, total discharge... There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
jaf01uk said:
DuckDuck said:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/polic...
There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
And what was the outcome of this catalogue of f**kwittery displayed? Yup you've guessed it, total discharge... There is no excuse for driving dangerously while responding to an emergency ....unless you're in a Bruce Willis fantasy world.
jaf01uk said:
You haven't read the "catalogue" of non exemptions and near accidents have you? Even the head of driving said it was "below the standard expected" so your point is?
The head of a driving school said the same thing about this case. It was nonsense then as well. Police chase prolific offender, Officer cancels pursuit after criminal drives through a level crossing, Officer then charged because what the CRIMINAL did was dangerous. But hanging Officers out to dry to placate the embittered is something that will never go away.http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/policeman-c...
Elroy Blue said:
jaf01uk said:
You haven't read the "catalogue" of non exemptions and near accidents have you? Even the head of driving said it was "below the standard expected" so your point is?
The head of a driving school said the same thing about this case. It was nonsense then as well. Police chase prolific offender, Officer cancels pursuit after criminal drives through a level crossing, Officer then charged because what the CRIMINAL did was dangerous. But hanging Officers out to dry to placate the embittered is something that will never go away.http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/policeman-c...
From your link
"This was an individual and unique case, and the CPS independently reviewed the evidence in accordance with national prosecutor guidance, known as the Charging Standard, in reaching its decision to charge"
DuckDuck said:
But hanging Officers out to dry to placate the embittered"
From your link
"This was an individual and unique case, and the CPS independently reviewed the evidence in accordance with national prosecutor guidance, known as the Charging Standard, in reaching its decision to charge"
There was absolutely no basis for that prosecution. If he had been found guilty, it would have ended Police pursuits in this country. Knowing the facts and who reached what decision and why proved to be a real eye opener. After being an Police advanced diver for many years, there have been a number of Officers rightly prosecuted. Equally, I know of significantly more that get charged just to please the local rag and a certain section of the population. There is a reason why so many Officers are found not guilty at court, it's because the prosecution was nonsense in the first place.From your link
"This was an individual and unique case, and the CPS independently reviewed the evidence in accordance with national prosecutor guidance, known as the Charging Standard, in reaching its decision to charge"
ruggedscotty said:
Actually I wasnt going too fast for the conditions - there was no collision. Where the A7 meets with city bypass it was busy cars were queued side by side for a few hundred yards on approach. I came off of the roundabout taking the A7 south - not going fast. but not going slow there was no visual indication no siren and no visible flashing lights seen. As the road straightened out the line of vision straightened and there plod was approaching at a fair lick.
Litrally slammed on the brakes and pulled into the far left..... my original post was that it was dangerous driving on the coppers part by approaching what was a busy junction on the wrong side of the road.
too fast for your vision rather than theconditions and you go on to admit this in your postign above ... do you know what the limit point is, and how it is used ? Litrally slammed on the brakes and pulled into the far left..... my original post was that it was dangerous driving on the coppers part by approaching what was a busy junction on the wrong side of the road.
jaf01uk said:
JumboBeef said:
Yes, quite rightly so. Your point is.....?
You haven't read the "catalogue" of non exemptions and near accidents have you? Even the head of driving said it was "below the standard expected" so your point is?JumboBeef said:
Go on then, I'll bite. Please do list for me the "non exemptions". As for near accidents, every emergency driver could give you a long list of these over their career.
First I disagree that all emergency drivers should have a long list of "near accidents" in their career, as regards the cop....The Herald said,
"A POLICE officer has admitted driving dangerously while responding to an emergency involving children and a firearm.
John Kearney, 49, was caught multiple times on the wrong side of the road, driving at excess speeds and overtaking cars while responding to the blue-light call.
He sped across several busy junctions, jumped red lights and caused other cars to swerve out his way to avoid hitting the police 4x4(non exemption) dangerous driving
The police constable appeared at Aberdeen Sheriff Court yesterday where he admitted driving dangerously on February 12 last year.
The charge was made of up 15 different parts detailing examples of the officer's driving on six different roads across Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire and Moray. No idea why he was on the A96 Abdn to Inverness road going to Banff?
He drove on the opposite carriageway 11 times, overtook when it was unsafe to do so nine times - Non exemption - dangerous driving, drove at an excess speed eight times, caused six other vehicles to take evasive action (Non exemption) - dangerous driving and lost control of the car twice - You familiar with "Red mist? I suspect you are if your opening statement applies to you?
The Police Scotland officer was due to go on trial, but made a plea in mitigation at court yesterday claiming he was on his way to an emergency "No emergency is so great as to justify an accident - it is far better to arrive later than not at all (roadcraft)
Defence agent Les Green said: "My client was a member of the armed response unit. He was an on duty police officer.
"He was responding to an incident involving a firearm, a knife and children."
The court heard Kearney was on duty when the call came through for the emergency involving a firearm.
He sped through the countryside in a police Land Rover Discovery - typically used by armed response units - as he made his way to the scene.
Six vehicles had to swerve to avoid colliding with the vehicle - again dangerous
He drove at excess speed on Westburn Road in Aberdeen - a 30mph limit zone - before jumping a red light.
When approaching a junction he jumped another red light while going at excess speed - Exemption but sas advocate give way then proceed, not through at high speed
He then drove out the city on North Anderson drive, where he moved onto the opposite carriageway - causing an oncoming car to take evasive action to avoid a crash - Non exemption - again dangerous
He then drove onto the opposite carriageway at the city's infamous bottleneck the Haudagain roundabout - causing more vehicles to dodge out of his way.
Kearney lost control of the car on the A90 at Muggiemoss Road while driving at excess speed and on the opposite carriageway - Again lost control?! - I refer you back to the Roadcraft quote re Red mist
The court papers stated he continued on the A947 between Parkhill and Fyvie - several times going onto the opposite carriageway and overtaking when it was unsafe to do so.
He then went on the A96 Aberdeen to Inverness road, going on the wrong side of the road, doing risky overtaking manoeuvres and causing other drivers to get out of his way"
My bold, lucky boy to get away with all that I reckon, hardly a glowing demonstration of a cool headed firearms operative in action?
Most of your examples are about traffic having to change direction to avoid the police car. Every time I drive on an emergency run I have to do this....I agree there are degrees of making someone change their course but, if you are approaching a junction on the "wrong" side of the road, other traffic is going to have to stop and/or change direction.
Again, red lights require a stop and then give way. However, back in the real world there are many ATS junctions which have excellent visibility in all directions allowing you to drive through safely at a decent lick whilst seeing that all roads are clear in all directions, so driving through "at speed" is not necessarily dangerous (it might be against policy but not dangerous).
You slow to a crawl to go through a red light, then proceed at 10mph. Doris approaching from the right in her Micra happily drives through the junction in front of you. If you didn't take action, you would collide....but you don't because you were ready for her to do exactly that.
You are fast approaching two cars along a fast straight road (going in the same direction as you). The first car sees you and pulls over. Chantelle who is in the second car (a Clio powered by fairy dust) wonders vaguely why the first car as pulled over. It's a strange place to stop, innit. At the last moment, she swerves right, past the first car giving the driver the finger....straight in to your path. You have to brake hard to avoid a collision ( but not everyone is so lucky).
Or cars which are turning right, indicating right. You carefully go to the left of them.....and they suddenly see you and swing left. Or you go right around them....and they still turn right oblivious to your presence.....
Etc etc..... You take your life (or at least your driving licence) in your hands on every one of these drives.
Again, red lights require a stop and then give way. However, back in the real world there are many ATS junctions which have excellent visibility in all directions allowing you to drive through safely at a decent lick whilst seeing that all roads are clear in all directions, so driving through "at speed" is not necessarily dangerous (it might be against policy but not dangerous).
jaf01uk said:
First I disagree that all emergency drivers should have a long list of "near accidents" in their career
Have you ever driven on an emergency drive? It is amazing what other drivers do.....You slow to a crawl to go through a red light, then proceed at 10mph. Doris approaching from the right in her Micra happily drives through the junction in front of you. If you didn't take action, you would collide....but you don't because you were ready for her to do exactly that.
You are fast approaching two cars along a fast straight road (going in the same direction as you). The first car sees you and pulls over. Chantelle who is in the second car (a Clio powered by fairy dust) wonders vaguely why the first car as pulled over. It's a strange place to stop, innit. At the last moment, she swerves right, past the first car giving the driver the finger....straight in to your path. You have to brake hard to avoid a collision ( but not everyone is so lucky).
Or cars which are turning right, indicating right. You carefully go to the left of them.....and they suddenly see you and swing left. Or you go right around them....and they still turn right oblivious to your presence.....
Etc etc..... You take your life (or at least your driving licence) in your hands on every one of these drives.
JumboBeef said:
Have you ever driven on an emergency drive? It is amazing what other drivers do.....
You slow to a crawl to go through a red light, then proceed at 10mph. Doris approaching from the right in her Micra happily drives through the junction in front of you. If you didn't take action, you would collide....but you don't because you were ready for her to do exactly that.
You are fast approaching two cars along a fast straight road (going in the same direction as you). The first car sees you and pulls over. Chantelle who is in the second car (a Clio powered by fairy dust) wonders vaguely why the first car as pulled over. It's a strange place to stop, innit. At the last moment, she swerves right, past the first car giving the driver the finger....straight in to your path. You have to brake hard to avoid a collision ( but not everyone is so lucky).
Or cars which are turning right, indicating right. You carefully go to the left of them.....and they suddenly see you and swing left. Or you go right around them....and they still turn right oblivious to your presence.....
Etc etc..... You take your life (or at least your driving licence) in your hands on every one of these drives.
Have I driven on an emergency run? Only 3 70 mile blue light runs in the last 4 days, I suggest to have saved yourself a red face you might have checked my profile before launching into a rant, gained my IHCD D2 ticket in '94 so err yeah!You slow to a crawl to go through a red light, then proceed at 10mph. Doris approaching from the right in her Micra happily drives through the junction in front of you. If you didn't take action, you would collide....but you don't because you were ready for her to do exactly that.
You are fast approaching two cars along a fast straight road (going in the same direction as you). The first car sees you and pulls over. Chantelle who is in the second car (a Clio powered by fairy dust) wonders vaguely why the first car as pulled over. It's a strange place to stop, innit. At the last moment, she swerves right, past the first car giving the driver the finger....straight in to your path. You have to brake hard to avoid a collision ( but not everyone is so lucky).
Or cars which are turning right, indicating right. You carefully go to the left of them.....and they suddenly see you and swing left. Or you go right around them....and they still turn right oblivious to your presence.....
Etc etc..... You take your life (or at least your driving licence) in your hands on every one of these drives.
Gary
jaf01uk said:
Have I driven on an emergency run? Only 3 70 mile blue light runs in the last 4 days, I suggest to have saved yourself a red face you might have checked my profile before launching into a rant, gained my IHCD D2 ticket in '94 so err yeah!
Gary
In that case I'm............ surprised......... by your point of view on this matter. I didn't check your profile as your posting seemed to be from a MOP who didn't understand the situation.Gary
Suprised, very surprised.
JumboBeef said:
In that case I'm............ surprised......... by your point of view on this matter. I didn't check your profile as your posting seemed to be from a MOP who didn't understand the situation.
Suprised, very surprised.
I'm not sure I understand why you think this, you asked for a list of non exemptions claimed and I gave them but you still think this way? I would have thought anyone who is in the privileged position of being allowed to claim exemptions should be protective of that right and be as keen as I am to ensure that people like the cop on that run have the right removed, it's all about credibility, he drove (according to their own head of training) like a MOP given a vehicle with blues and told to just get on with it, trained drivers are supposed to be better than that and set an example... Suprised, very surprised.
Right to give some background - here is a little knock up.... The A7 comming up to the roundabout is a widish two lane road. It does not have much in the way of two lane approach but this junction does back up. on this occasion there was a fair bit of backup and this had split into two columns on the northbound approach. You can see that in the pic. This means that there is traffic over the centre lane markings for some distance on the approach.
I came round the roundabout from the west section of the A720. And was lucky enough to get the lights in my favour - this means not doing 70 mph but going at a speed that would not as if I had just pulled away from being stopped. Does that make sense now ? Id say I would be doing around 35 40 or there abouts as the A7 straightened up.
The whole time I was not aware of siren or had seen any lights. I had my wife and daughter in the car. I saw the police car and my wife had let out a scream due to the evasive action required to prevent an accident. If I was over 35 then the closing speed could well have been 70....
I braked and pulled into the left off the road. Bear in mind there were cars on the other side of the road two queues together in what was a single lane so there was already encroachment into my side of the road.
And a copper running up on the wrong side.....
As for the idiot label - entitled to your own opinion on this. But id say that the copper was the one that was in the wrong here and indeed an idiot himself / herself for thinking that they could approach this junction in this manner with what I would regard as a total disregard to other road users.
Yes if you have to make a emergency run then you should be following your training and doing it in a style that does not pose a grave danger to other road users. Yes the speed would have been low enough if there had been a collision that there would not have been any fatality - but that does not mean that it gives cart blanche to drive like that.
You drive to the conditions and you drive in such a manner as you do not put other road users at risk.
Edited by ruggedscotty on Sunday 2nd November 08:54
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff