Been cheated on a car rebuild - where do I stand please?

[Dr Imran T]

Du1point8 said:

In cases like this from what has been put on forums, I believe you have to give them the option to fix it.

If you pay someone else to fix it and go after them for the money without doing that, you will essentially lose the money you paid them and be out the cost of getting it fixed yourself. All down to not giving them the chance to rectify it.

If they turn around and tell you to jog on, then its court time.

Thanks - I'm not paying someone else to fix the car but merely give it a thorough going over. Now that I have a true qualified/expert opinion I have then put these concerns back to the original garage that carried out the work.

That is where I am at the moment.

I am awaiting a response.

[BertBert]

It will be interesting to see how you get on. I'm still interested in the connection from the bad running symptoms you have to the conclusion that the engine is duff. In my experience, an engine has to be in really poor shape to cause the poor running I think you are describing. Things that make engines run badly are much more likely to be the peripherals - electrics, induction etc.

What did the compression test actually find? They are not very good at judging absolute condition of cylinders normally only big variations between cylinders. That in itself is not evidence of whether the engine had a "recent rebuild".

I just had an engine that had recently had a huge rebuild lunch itself. So the fact that it broke didn't indicate it hadn't been rebuilt.

My suggestion is that you initially focus more on the actual symptoms with the supplier. My guess is they will and can argue forever about what "rebuild" means and what "recent" means. However a complaint that "it runs like st" and the brakes bind is a much stronger complaint.

HTH
Bert

[Dr Imran T]

Bert - lets put it this way. The car in question is a very high performance machine. For the sake of anonymity I won't go into too much detail as I hope to resolve this.

The car has now been sent to a genuine specialist who has done every test possible to figure out why the car is running poorly. We are talking about a 300+ BHP car here that is actually very slow.

I was surprised to find out how sluggish this car is.. yes a lot of other 'minor' components are tired and generally don't help the cause - but the biggest factor is the compression is way down.

A very healthy engine is 200psi, an acceptable one in pretty good shape is 185psi. Mine is 135psi across all cylinders - for me to make this car 'healthy' I would be throwing good money after bad. It actually needs to be stripped and the head rebuilt valves etc as well as the bores honed/new piston rings - you get the idea.

The fact that this is not a cheap car that is going to cost thousands more.

[singlecoil]

AngryPartsBloke said:

I have to point out there is a huge difference between an engine that's been rebuilt and engine that's been reconditioned. People quite often confuse the two beliving they are one in the same when they are worlds apart.

Well, if those confused people are English speaking, who can blame them, when the Oxford dictionary gives rebuild as a synonym for recondition?

This is a good example of how quite often some people within a particular industry expect people from outside that industry to know the 'special meaning' they apply to certain words.

[AngryPartsBloke]

singlecoil said:

AngryPartsBloke said:

I have to point out there is a huge difference between an engine that's been rebuilt and engine that's been reconditioned. People quite often confuse the two beliving they are one in the same when they are worlds apart.

Well, if those confused people are English speaking, who can blame them, when the Oxford dictionary gives rebuild as a synonym for recondition?

This is a good example of how quite often some people within a particular industry expect people from outside that industry to know the 'special meaning' they apply to certain words.

Hence why I asked the OP exactley what he had been told.

I don't expect anybody outside my industry to understand what things mean. This is why I only offer the one service and why I explain to every customer EXACTLEY what they are getting with a list of every part thats replaced, machined, polishee or re-ground.

[Dr Imran T]

Does it help that I was not expecting a re conditioned engine? I had agreed that engine to be installed was a very strong unit that had been rebuilt. One would not expect a rebuilt engine to be that much down on compression though surely.

Besides the low compression other components such as plugs/leads and sensors etc were really very tired/perished. One of the sensor was very badly deteriorated and had actually burnt out.

This is not what even a layman would class a a 'good' recently rebuilt engine.

[AngryPartsBloke]

Dr Imran T said:

Does it help that I was not expecting a re conditioned engine? I had agreed that engine to be installed was a very strong unit that had been rebuilt. One would not expect a rebuilt engine to be that much down on compression though surely.

Besides the low compression other components such as plugs/leads and sensors etc were really very tired/perished. One of the sensor was very badly deteriorated and had actually burnt out.

This is not what even a layman would class a a 'good' recently rebuilt engine.

From my point of view, what i would expect to see from a 'good' engine Rebuild is an engine that had had been checked over, had the bores and other components checked for wear and be put back togeather after cleaning with all new gaskets, piston rings, big end and main bearings. Some work to the head if required but certinely inspected.

What i tend to see is engines built up with the Minimum amount of new parts. A pointless exercise in stripping and rebuilding an engine which if anything will be a bit worse than before.

Edited by AngryPartsBloke on Friday 24th October 13:29

[Cerberaherts]

Dr Imran T said:

Does it help that I was not expecting a re conditioned engine? I had agreed that engine to be installed was a very strong unit that had been rebuilt. One would not expect a rebuilt engine to be that much down on compression though surely.

Besides the low compression other components such as plugs/leads and sensors etc were really very tired/perished. One of the sensor was very badly deteriorated and had actually burnt out.

This is not what even a layman would class a a 'good' recently rebuilt engine.

I suspect your plugs, leads and the sensor issue are more the cause of your running concerns rather than the compression being low. It takes virtually a loss of compression to make an engine run rough. Worn engines can run fine for years as long as the compressions are even across the bank. This obviously doesn't excuse the fact that the compressions are lower than expected on a rebuilt engine.

[andycaca]

135psi across all cylinders isnt too bad. maye its something simple like the cam timing being out by a tooth.
my "very high performance machine" once had the timing out by one tooth and the 450bhp felt more like my wife's 900cc corsa!

hopefully its not all doom and gloom, give them the change to fix it. and document everything via email or letterheaded paper. if it does all go tits up you want a leg to stand on

[Dr Imran T]

Cerberaherts said:

I suspect your plugs, leads and the sensor issue are more the cause of your running concerns rather than the compression being low. It takes virtually a loss of compression to make an engine run rough. Worn engines can run fine for years as long as the compressions are even across the bank. This obviously doesn't excuse the fact that the compressions are lower than expected on a rebuilt engine.

I would disagree. I can easily swap plugs/leads, however the engine is gutless. no matter how many components I replace the engine is fundamentally compromised.

It will never perform as it should. Like I said there is a difference between a very healthy engine, then one with good compression - mine however falls well below good compression.

If I replaced all the worn components, what will I be left with? a sub standard engine in my view.

[Dr Imran T]

andycaca said:

135psi across all cylinders isnt too bad. maye its something simple like the cam timing being out by a tooth.
my "very high performance machine" once had the timing out by one tooth and the 450bhp felt more like my wife's 900cc corsa!

hopefully its not all doom and gloom, give them the change to fix it. and document everything via email or letterheaded paper. if it does all go tits up you want a leg to stand on

it was out a tooth actually on the exhaust cam. Now rectified, the compression is still much the same. The car I should add is now in the most capable hands - so the feedback report from the current garage is the bottom line.

[littleredrooster]

andycaca said:

135psi across all cylinders isnt too bad...

Disagree. If it's supposed to be in the range 185-200, then 135 suggests major work is needed to valves, rings/bores or both.

Running at c.65% of its design figure is not going to produce good performance!

[Dr Imran T]

littleredrooster said:

Disagree. If it's supposed to be in the range 185-200, then 135 suggests major work is needed to valves, rings/bores or both.

Running at c.65% of its design figure is not going to produce good performance!

that's exactly what I said. Plus all the people I have spoke to with regards this specific engine confirm the same.

[nitrodave]

What car/engine was is this? at least tell us if it is NA or forced induction? I'm guessing NA based on what the compression should be.

Is the compression also bang on 135psi even across all cylinders? it could have previously had the compression lowered to accommodate forced induction. Would be good to find out the history of the engine that's been fitted.

I'm guessing it's LS1/2/7 lump, in which case it wouldn't surprise me if it has been rebuilt, with a thicker head gasket and been run with a supercharger.

[AngryPartsBloke]

nitrodave said:

What car/engine was is this? at least tell us if it is NA or forced induction? I'm guessing NA based on what the compression should be.

Is the compression also bang on 135psi even across all cylinders? it could have previously had the compression lowered to accommodate forced induction. Would be good to find out the history of the engine that's been fitted.

I'm guessing it's LS1/2/7 lump, in which case it wouldn't surprise me if it has been rebuilt, with a thicker head gasket and been run with a supercharger.

I think OP's car has 2 less cylinders.

[Dr Imran T]

it's a pretty highly strung NA 6 cylinder - thus high/strong compression is key.

I do not want to go into too much detail as to reveal who is doing the works etc and I am in the process of resolving this.

[nitrodave]

Dr Imran T said:

it's a pretty highly strung NA 6 cylinder - thus high/strong compression is key.

I do not want to go into too much detail as to reveal who is doing the works etc and I am in the process of resolving this.

ok cool, let us know how you get on.... although it's not gona stop me guessing what it is... e46 m3?

[The Surveyor]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand a few key areas here.

If I was running a tuned, high performance engine and it became sick, I wouldn't just leave it with somebody I've never had dealings with and only communicated by email and bank transfer, and certainly wouldn't agree to just dropping in an untested engine including crappy plugs and leads etc without any comeback. Did they give you any indication of what would happen if this salvage engine turned out to be a lemon?

Also, if I'd paid for work that I wasn't happy with to the point that the car wouldn't drive, why didn't you simply send it back to them to sort? That replacement engine may not be as good as you, or even they expected, but it seams strange not to let them look at it. How are you now going to prove that it wasn't running fine when they dropped it off?

Finally, if you have an expert on hand who's skilled with these high performance cars etc, why didn't you let them sort it in originally, with a proper rebuild of your original engine.

[Dr Imran T]

The Surveyor said:

Am I the only one who doesn't understand a few key areas here.

If I was running a tuned, high performance engine and it became sick, I wouldn't just leave it with somebody I've never had dealings with and only communicated by email and bank transfer, and certainly wouldn't agree to just dropping in an untested engine including crappy plugs and leads etc without any comeback. Did they give you any indication of what would happen if this salvage engine turned out to be a lemon?

Also, if I'd paid for work that I wasn't happy with to the point that the car wouldn't drive, why didn't you simply send it back to them to sort? That replacement engine may not be as good as you, or even they expected, but it seams strange not to let them look at it. How are you now going to prove that it wasn't running fine when they dropped it off?

Finally, if you have an expert on hand who's skilled with these high performance cars etc, why didn't you let them sort it in originally, with a proper rebuild of your original engine.

There is a perfectly good explanation, why I wasn't able to use the local chap. Also the company I went with was very highly recommended and well regarded. it wasn't a blind risk what I did.

I will of course as a first port of call try and resolve this with the garage and see where I get to. Shame it has come to this and been a lot of extra messing around.

[The Surveyor]

I hope you are able to get it sorted nice and quickly.

Cheers